Author Topic: GScholz more ont turbo props:  (Read 6664 times)

Offline Holden McGroin

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GScholz more ont turbo props:
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2005, 03:35:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tails
False statement on torque. Yes, while the torques created in the compressor and turbine sections of a jet engine are opposed, the turbine section creates a considerable ammount more torque in comparison to what the compressor creates.  


In a Pratt and Whitney FT-8, (the power generator version of the A/C turbine powering 737s, DC-9s and numerous other A/C)  The high speed turbine powers the high speed compressor, and the same with the LST / LSC.

As the HSC and HST are on the same shaft, running the same speed, (after all they are the same shaft) where does the extra torque come from?  The shaft between the HSC and HST only has one torque.

The LS shaft runs independantly from the HS shaft.

As the compressor is powered by the turbine, and they are running the same speed, the compressor at a constant rpm, the torque must balance.

In a turbo-prop the turbine does over power the compressor, and the extra hp (torque as we are at constant rpm) goes into the prop.  In a turbofan the turbine provides hp over and above the needs of the compressor so hp can spin the bypass fan.

But in a turbojet, the turbine and compressor sections precisely balance torque.  There is nowhere for extra torque to go.
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Offline Tails

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GScholz more ont turbo props:
« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2005, 07:11:50 AM »
Again, if the torque, or power, created in the hot section of a turbojet was equal to the torque load of the compressor section, then all the energy created in the combustion section would be used up just driving the turbines, and you would get no resulting thrust. The torque created in the turbine section will ALWAYS be greater than the load in the compressor in a turbojet, thus a torque force, opposed to the torque imparted on the turbine shaft, will be present trying to turn the engine case.

Now, will it be a whole heck of alot? No. But it will be there. The only turbines that have a chance to create zero torque to the engine case are designs that have the high speed and low speed compressors contrarotating, and even that is in a perfect-world scenario.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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GScholz more ont turbo props:
« Reply #62 on: January 13, 2005, 07:57:02 AM »
Energy is not created in the compressor.  

The compressor spins to support combustion.

Power is used in the compressor.

The combustor creates the power.

A portion of the power from the combustor is harnessed in the turbine.

The turbine uses its portion of the power to spin the compressor.
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Offline hitech

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GScholz more ont turbo props:
« Reply #63 on: January 13, 2005, 09:18:16 AM »
Im with Holden McGroin on this one: Still looking how a Hi Bipass fan can transmit substantial torque to the airframe other than.

1.  Air friction of the air travling in the engine.
2.  Bearing friction.
3.  Stators (this might be a substantial force)

Just as he describes torque must be equal between compressor and turbin. In a Bypass system compressor + bypass = turbin.

Apears to me all torque (other than resons listed) are oposit directions and accounted for my airflow deflection. I.E nothing to the airframe.

Also


Quote
But you will have less thrust than if you just squirted the water nozzle out the back in the first place. Your turbine is just mechanical loss and wasted money, and can do no work


Belive this is not quite accurate. You will have less power. Total thrust could be increased at slow speed.

Edit:
On 2nd thought not sure Im correct on this , is it posible to create more thrust with out lowering rpm?


HiTech
« Last Edit: January 13, 2005, 09:54:15 AM by hitech »

Offline BUG_EAF322

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GScholz more ont turbo props:
« Reply #64 on: January 13, 2005, 09:28:53 AM »
anything thats driven from the midlle of the object has torque

seen a helicopter from wich the main rotor was driven by jet (exhaust) from the end of the blade tip.

it didn't need a tail rotor because the was no torque.

i can imagine where as the  heli tailrotor failures.

the pilot only has to drive his main rotor just to keep speed slowly turning slower  at a point not accelerating and no steady rpm

but he certainly has to land
« Last Edit: January 13, 2005, 09:34:32 AM by BUG_EAF322 »

Offline GScholz

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GScholz more ont turbo props:
« Reply #65 on: January 13, 2005, 10:26:43 AM »
I believe this thread is spent. Its purpose was to figure out if turboprops applied torque on the airframe. I believe HiTech answered that with the clarification of how the reduction gearing would create torque.

However before I eject, I have a few parting comments:


Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I am referring to the cylinder head and the top of the piston.  What shoves a piston down is expanding gas.  What shoves the turbine rotor around is expanding gas.  Same principal... expanding hot gas is indeed a mechanical connection.


Yes same principle, but different application of force. A cannon and a recoilless rifle work on the very same principle too, but I think you will agree that one creates recoil, but the other does not. Different application of force; one is balanced, the other is not.


Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
But you will have less thrust than if you just squirted the water nozzle out the back in the first place.  Your turbine is just mechanical loss and wasted money, and can do no work


Utter nonsense. You never get more energy out of a machine then what you put in, and the GScholz-jet is no exception. Just like a turboprop it just converts linear force into rotational force. In fact, exchange the water nozzles with a jet engine and you have a turboprop.

Your thinking is like saying "Why have electricity when we have steam power? Your steam-turbine generator is just mechanical loss and wasted money".


Quote
Originally posted by Tails
Again, if the torque, or power, created in the hot section of a turbojet was equal to the torque load of the compressor section, then all the energy created in the combustion section would be used up just driving the turbines, and you would get no resulting thrust. The torque created in the turbine section will ALWAYS be greater than the load in the compressor in a turbojet, thus a torque force, opposed to the torque imparted on the turbine shaft, will be present trying to turn the engine case.


No. All the turbines are connected to the same shaft, and so they must all have the same torque applied to them (unless there is some sort of gearing involved). There is only one force created by the combustion and that is a linear force of moving/expanding gas. However the turbines converts some of this linear force into rotational force. That "some" is equal to the force spent in the compressor stage at the other end of the shaft.


Quote
Originally posted by Straiga
I understand so much that I actually fly jets, turbo props, and helicopters. Also I instruct people how to fly them too.


Oh I'm sure you are quite capable of piloting an aircraft ... just don't try to build one. As it has been pointed out in numerous threads you (like I used to) have some misconceptions about how airplanes actually work. If you don't trust me, ask HiTech ... he's a pilot too.

Oh and if you're afraid there's still a few people that don't know you're a pilot, you could start a thread in the O' Club or General Forum with the title "I AM TEH PI3LIT!!!". That way everybody will know you're a busdr ... pilot, and the importance of everything you say.

Just some friendly advice.


"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Tails

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GScholz more ont turbo props:
« Reply #66 on: January 13, 2005, 11:31:26 AM »
I'm getting a headache through all of this, so I'm gonna take a break, and study my FAA AC 65-9 and my power plant text-books and get back to you all.

Peace :D
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Offline Tails

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GScholz more ont turbo props:
« Reply #67 on: January 13, 2005, 12:02:12 PM »
Well, that was quick (caffinee is a wonderful creation).


I dont know where my head was, but it seems things were rattling around too much in my head, so I say we start from the beginning. First, turbojets:

A turbojet gains thrust from the interaction of hot, compressed exhaust air with cool ambient air. This air is comressed by the compressor section of the engine, then superheated in the combustion section wherwe it tries to expand away. It cant go back the way it came under normal situations (and when it does, you get a 'compressor stall' with a loud bang and flames shooting out both ends), so the expanding exhaust air follows the path of least resistance and goes out the back of the engine, into the turbine section.

The stators in the turbine section deflect the expanding gasses to impact at a more usable angle on the turbine blades, which forces them to move and turn the wheel they're attached to. The turbine blades themselves are also curved, partly to gain a little more energy from deflection forces, and partly to help direct the air into the next stage of stators. Wash, rinse, repeat, until you run out of turbine stages. Now, as Sir Newton teaches us, with every action, in this case the air being deflected by the stators, there is a reaction, the turbine case (and the engine it is attached to) trying to rotate in the direction opposite the direction the air is deflected in. There's your torque.

Now, for some reason I said that the comressor creates torque forces as it's compressiing, agreeing with someone else here. This is FALSE. The compressor creates a torque load, which is overcome by the compressor shaft, which is spun by the turbine wheels. The more load, the more force is required to over come it, simple mechanics there. And with more force being created to spin the turbine, more force is acting on the stators, and thus more torque is created. All this time, the force is coming from that hot air from the combustion section expanding and trying to get out of the damned engine!

Now, if you use up all of your energy just keeping the compressor turning, then the air will of completely expanded as it exits the turbine, and you get no jet thrust and little airflow. This is what happens with turboshaft designs, as they draw out the maximum ammount of power from the expanding gases with the power turbine (or the hot-section's turbine, in the case of a direct-drive turboshaft).

Ok, next lesson, bypassing fans. Hitech is correct in his statement of sources of torque from a bypassing fan. The torque forces are created from the hot section overcoming the load of the high and low speed compressors, by blasting more hot air through the turbine, which creates more force on the turbine blades to spin things, and creates more force on the stators to direct the air to spin things.

Still here? Ok...

Next, turbo props. A direct-drive, non-reduced turboprop with no gear-box between the engine and the prop would generate torque in the same way as a bypassing fan or turbojet. It would also self-destruct the prop from the gee forces, so we stick a reduction gear on it. This now adds a new load, as well as another kink in the torque problem. We now have something mechanical, bolted to the air frame, that is trying to spin a propeller. And with the load the propeller is creating, we have a reaction trying to spin the gear-box it's attached to. That's torque, folks.

Dont beleive me? Then tell me what would happen if you hung a 182 with the Power Pak STC performed (thats a little turboprop, Allison A250 model) by it's prop and fired it up? If you try to tell me the aircraft wouldn't end up spinning around, then you need to take what you're smoking and share it with the rest of the class.

PS: And if anyone here questions anyone's certifications, I know how to get to the FAA's Airmen Inquiry site. I'll happily give anyone that requests it my real name to look up my A-P ticket :D
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Offline hitech

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GScholz more ont turbo props:
« Reply #68 on: January 13, 2005, 12:14:06 PM »
Tails: Thanks for a precice explination.

Btw any idea on the scale of torque created by the stators?

HiTech

Offline T1loady

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GScholz more ont turbo props:
« Reply #69 on: January 13, 2005, 12:16:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Straiga
In a turbo prop there is a planetary gear box. One big gear rotating around 4-6 smaller gears that set inside the big gear and attached to the turbine shaft, but not to a stationary point or mount. This is in the forward part of the engine.

HoHun, Rshubert, good points all.

One important point when you add power to a turbine the RPM  as it increase from, say 5,000 rpm to 45,000 rpm during an engine spool up, torque is also present. Acceleration of a rotational mass. In the DC-10 and B-767 as power is increased the aircraft pulls to the left on spool up.

Also when the jet thrust exits in one direction, the torque leverage is excerted on the airframe in the oposite direction, as in an engine hanging on a wing pylon. For every action theres an oposite and egual reaction.

Straiga



I could not have said it better. In fact on the C-130 (which I have 4000+ hours on) we measure the amount of power that an engine is producing by torque. We have a limit of 19,600 inch pounds. The aircraft will create a bunch more. I have seen upto 25,000inlbs which is not good. The aircraft was grounded for a month to do massive over-torque inspections. The C-130 suffers from the P factor (rollling motion created my engine torque) and we really have some issues when we have #1 prop or engine failures...  Just my .02

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Offline hitech

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GScholz more ont turbo props:
« Reply #70 on: January 13, 2005, 01:04:43 PM »
Quote
The C-130 suffers from the P factor (rollling motion created my engine torque)


You sure thats what P factor is?

And with all this torque discusion, want to give the diffenition.

Torque is when you wake up in the morning with an erection. Go to take a Pee, push it down, and your feet fly off the floor.


HiTech
« Last Edit: January 13, 2005, 01:16:07 PM by hitech »

Offline GRUNHERZ

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GScholz more ont turbo props:
« Reply #71 on: January 13, 2005, 01:18:17 PM »
HT did I miss a previous discussion? Was it ever stated that a turboprop would have no torque effects on plane?

I'm not a physics/math type by nature but to my layman's view it seems logical that any powered rotating device would impart torque forces to the structure its attached to.

Is that a correct assumption?

Offline T1loady

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GScholz more ont turbo props:
« Reply #72 on: January 13, 2005, 01:27:29 PM »
Ok Hitech, You made me go talk to my Stan-eval Flight Engineer and Pilot. Here is the definition we came up with on the P factor (C-130)

It is the tendency of an aircraft to roll due to force/torque applied from the engine/prop. In the C-130 (the only aircraft I know) all of the props spin in the same direction. So.. when power is applied the aircraft has a tendency to roll toward the #1 engine. All of our told data is based off of the #1 engine wind milling in NTS. (Negative torque system) the P-fator increases as the amount of power (measured by torque in the C-130) is applied. This is the short answer Dale, but I am going to have to stick to my guns here. This is the way I was taught and this is what I know to be true in the Herk world. I may be off base here, and I am sorry if I stuck my nose into a topic that is well beyond my knowledge, but this is the answer I am sticking with. DALE, feel free to slam me. (S)

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Offline T1loady

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GScholz more ont turbo props:
« Reply #73 on: January 13, 2005, 01:38:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech

Torque is when you wake up in the morning with an erection. Go to take a Pee, push it down, and your feet fly off the floor.


HiTech

CLASSIC!!! Thanks  for the word that i was looking for  LOL (S)

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Offline hitech

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GScholz more ont turbo props:
« Reply #74 on: January 13, 2005, 02:01:06 PM »
T1Loady, all the effects you describe I 100% agree with.

But check this page out.

http://www.mindspring.com/~cramskill/propefct.htm


From that page.

P-Factor. Asymmetrical thrust is most apparent with taildraggers because it's mostly a function of the prop not being perpendicular to the oncoming airflow - but that can also happen with any plane when at a high angle of attack, like right AFTER takeoff. When the air is coming into the prop at an angle instead of square to it, one side of the prop operates at a higher angle of attack than the other, and the resultant thrust is no longer acting on the planes' centerline, but off to one side. And that makes the plane want to turn. See fig. 3. The usual case, nose high, gives us a left turn.

Torque. Our props have a certain amount of drag - and the torque (twisting force) the engine exerts on the air is, in opposite fashion, also exerted through the engine mount to the airplane. Since all our props turn to the right, that means there is a force trying to twist (roll) the airplane to the left. Note that this force is about the ROLL axis - the torque forces do not by themselves TURN or yaw the plane as do the previous two effects. We automatically take care of this with ailerons in keeping the wings level, and it really doesn't take much force from the ailerons to do it. On the ground, all torque forces are countered by the wheels.

So im curious does the military define the term P-factor differently?
Or is it called Power Factor?

HiTech