Author Topic: The "Airforces" Idea  (Read 614 times)

Offline Kweassa

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The "Airforces" Idea
« on: January 09, 2005, 12:18:19 AM »
Observe, the typical MA


Typical MA




 I am in the country A.

 80% of our forces are 'stationed' at the battling fronts between A and B, the A-B front. While at still a few bases the B present a serious resistance, in most of the total A-B front our forces greatly outnumber the B. We have more than 2 to 1 numbers advantage in our favor.

 However, at the opposite front of A-C, the forces of C are marching all aover our lands. Only 20% of our total forces are here. About 60% of entire C force is located at A-C, in which we of the A, must face 3 against 1 odds disadvantaged.

 The forces of C are a bit better balanced, 60% at A-C front, 40% at B-C front. However, the forces of B at B-C are 70%, which is almost 2 to 1 in favor for the B against the C. For the C, it is a tough battle to hold the lines.

 The same holds true for B. 30% of the people must face 80% of A at the A-B front. While at the B-C front, it is a relatively easier game.


 I have just logged on as A. What should I do? Should I go to the A-B front? So many friendlies are nearby. It'd be a miracle to find even a single plane to fight against. I'll be mostly facing buildings. There are still some 'toughspots' with relatively higher number of B in solemn defense, but even still they'd be pretty much easy pickings with so many friendlies nearby.

 Then should I go to the A-C front? To my certain, constant death? No matter how I ask for help, people fall deaf ears. Only a few people will ever respond to the urgent need to push back the C at the A-C front. The chances are, if I go there, I'd be spending my rest of couple of hours in continuous frustration, bearing a grudge against my own countrymen, bitter and sour.

 People say to me, "go whereever you want, and have fun". Except, there is no place I can ever go to have fun. Vulch or be vulched. Horde or be horded.

 ...

 For years, since the great population boom in the MA, we've been thinking that these conditions are only temporary. Soon people will move fronts, shift positions, and balance the lines out. However, most of us have come to realize that it was nothing more than a naive fantasy. Like some have said, people take the path of least resistance. Given a choice, they will always choose an easier path.

 These conditions will persist in the arena, right up to the end. People hoped that a larger map will stop the problem by spreading people apart.

 However, in the end, the only thing the large maps have done, is to help people ease a bit of steam. Since the maps are so large, rarely will a side ever reach an indisputable reset. They can ignore this condition for days, and then just put up with a last minute defense, and the promised one-week term would end, and the map would rotate to something else.

 These conditions persist, until a certain side somehow manages to have so much people logged on, that they have enough people to set up a defense at one front, and still barge through the other to the total reset.


 Does it always have to be like this? Freedom is an important thing, and many people just simply frown at the idea of 'control' or 'regulations' or 'systems'. However, can there not be implemented some basic structure to the MA, so that at least some of the most extreme and undesirable effects that such freedom can cause, can be avoided?



Airforces



 Extending from that though, I present the 'airforces' idea. The basic concept of the MA remains the same.

 However, you will notice that the three countries, "A", "B", and "C", are again each divided into two parts.

 A, is divided into two airforces, A1 and A2. B, is divided into B1 and B2. C is also the same, C1 and C2.

 With each new logon, a player will be placed into one of the two airforces, which is lower in numbers. The goal of this system, is to split the total manpower a side can boast, into two independant sections of airforces.

 For instance, A1 and A2 will each have 50% of total numbers country A has. Pilots stationed at airforce A1, will be able to takeoff from any of the fields which A1 controls. Pilots of A2, will take off from any of the fields A2 control.

 However, A1 and A2 are two different airforces belonging to the same country "A". Pilots of A1 will not be able to take off from a base under A2 control, and vice versa. A1 is its own zone(or consisted of many zones), with separate strat objects from A2. A destroyed strat object under A1 control, will not effect A2. The only common object A1 and A2 share, will be the HQ which enables radar.


 These conditions are same for all of the airforces in the countries.

 A1 will usually be fighting against B2. A2 against C1. C2 against B1.  

 However, this does not mean that the basic tactics will be always the same. A1 and A2 have the largest chance of joint operations in the middle of the terrain, "Furball Island". This holds the same for C1+C2, and B1+B2. So, if A1+A2 joint operations hit the furball isle, other countries are within the range to retaliate.

 Any new fields a certain airforce captures, will be under its direct control. A certain segment of A1 can launch from the furball Island, start conquests toward the south and gain fields there, which will again allow A1 forces to join up with A2 and gang up on C1, if it is truly what they wish. However, in order to do that, they must first go through the C1 and C2 forces which also might be operating out of furball isle, to gain foothold into C1, to create a 'horde'.
 
 If for any reason, a pilot at A1 desires to be transferred to A2, he will goto the HQ, which will have a 'swapping room'. A simple radio announcement that he wishes to trade places with someone at A2, goto the HQ and wait until someone in A2 also wishes to swap places appears.

 
 This system, despite what it looks, essentially offers the same things as the current MA. Nothing which is possible currently, will be impossible in the "airforces" idea.

 The only difference is people are always at least minutely structured, divided into two operating zones. One can belong to only one zone of operation per given time. If he wishes to "leave post", he must find a replacement from the otherside, so the balance of the two fronts always remain persistent.

 One can still do large operations, or create hordes and go attack a single zone. But unlike how it is now, if creation of a horde is truly what they desire, they will have to work for it - first gain the bases needed to go into joint operations with the other airforce.

 People won't be allowed to just go run off into the path of least resistance. Unless the MA numbers itself is totally unbalanced(like, 200 : 120 : 100 people) any person stationed with a certain airforce, will always face simular numbers in the opposition. Any enemy or friendly horde which might be created at that front, will be using only limited resources. And being stationed at a front without free access to the other front (at least, until someone to swap places comes about), will essentially simulate the imbuing of the personnel stationed at that one airforce with clear responsibilities in that front.
 

 The only thing that is "prohibited" in this new scheme is "cowardice" in a strategical sense. Everything else is the same. There is no reason to leave one's post, because the odds aren't particularly any better or worse in the other front.

 All the fronts will be balanced in numbers, with its own airforce to claim responsibility for. You can't blame anyone else, or rest of the countrymen for the failures in your front now. You are in the X airforce fighting strictly against one of the two enemy countries.


Simular numbers stationed at both sides of the front, simular assets. Only the side with better tactics and strategy will ever be able to break through the other's lines.

 There is no relying on huge numbers of steamrollers now. Your country may have the overall numbers advantage, but it will not instantly become an unstoppable asset for you. Just creating a huge swarm at the expense of giving up defenses on the other side, is not allowed. Even if you have 30 men advantage over other countries, they will be divided into two, which will leave 15 men advantage at the actual front.

 And if, none of the two countries fighting at a single front will be able to break through and gain real territory, well that's not bad either. There's at least gonna be some sort of fight which one can actually enjoy fighting in(!).
« Last Edit: January 09, 2005, 01:10:02 AM by Kweassa »

Offline SFCHONDO

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The "Airforces" Idea
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2005, 01:38:31 AM »
Well I see several problems whith this idea. The basic concept sounds good on paper, but still several problems.

It's late so I won't state all of the ones I noticed right off, but I will state the #1 problem I see right off and I think most will also see.

With each new logon, a player will be placed into one of the two airforces, which is lower in numbers. The goal of this system, is to split the total manpower a side can boast, into two independant sections of airforces.
 
Based on your above statment, how will this allow for squads to fly together? We all log on at different times and get put on the side with fewer numbers. This will have my squadies on two different fronts. One of the top 5 reasons I like this game is to be able to do things together with my friends in my squad.

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to run down your idea. I am just pointing out a flaw in it is all.
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Offline Shane

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The "Airforces" Idea
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2005, 03:00:28 AM »
yanno...

if you spent as much time in the DA as you do typing all these dissertions.....


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Offline Kweassa

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The "Airforces" Idea
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2005, 03:21:36 AM »
Sorry Shane, narsissysm ain't my style.


 Hondo, the squad members will have to wait for a space to open for swapping places.

 Or, there could be small variations of methods when determining initial placement. Ie. the system might tolerate a certain level of difference between the two fronts, and unless some sort of absolute limit is achieved, it would always try to place squad members into an airforce which other members are placed in. This is essentially a spin-off from how the side-balancing plane limiter system works.

 Like, for instance, the system might tolerate an uneven front levels for maybe upto 40:60. Until this unbalance occurs, people will be able to freely roam around fronts.

 Only when the 40:60 level between the fronts is broken, any new transfers to the other side will have to find a 'swapper'. So, as long as the sides are mildly even, squadsmen could shuffle around upto some point.

Offline stegor

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The "Airforces" Idea
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2005, 03:50:22 AM »
Quote
I have just logged on as A. What should I do? Should I go to the A-B front? So many friendlies are nearby. It'd be a miracle to find even a single plane to fight against. I'll be mostly facing buildings. There are still some 'toughspots' with relatively higher number of B in solemn defense, but even still they'd be pretty much easy pickings with so many friendlies nearby........ecc




I've noticed that times ago, in this situation, me an my squaddie, sometimes we were going to find  a calm spot on the map; then we upped in -4-5 to try a capture. The enemies , saw what was going on, and they broke their front upping from the attacked base. Other were doing the same things, and the fighting situations were spreading across the map.
Then came whining about "increase furball, decrease tactics"
Nowadays it is impossible to take a base if you are not a Horde.
So we are forced to go were the horde is, no more little groups spreading and fighting on the map.
Furballer rules the map;)
Nibbio
4° Stormo C.T. "F. Baracca"


Offline MANDO

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The "Airforces" Idea
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2005, 06:49:01 AM »
Well, IMO, the concept about the fronts is somewhat wrong.

The attacking front needs jabos, bombers, goons and fighters, the defending front only needs fighters. Based on that, it is perfectly normal to have more players in front A/B than in front A/C.

The real problem for country A comes when front B/C does not exist so that fronts A/C and A/B are defending fronts. Even in this case, you cannot split your forces in two same sized forces, B may be attacking with many more players than C.

IMO, all we need is a way to premiate good defenses, delaying the reset is not enough. Some attrition system is the answer.

Offline Tilt

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The "Airforces" Idea
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2005, 07:54:19 AM »
This whole premice assumes that hordes operate across a "front" and indeed it assumes that they tend to operate across only one front of each nations segment.

It also assumes that hording is a function of overall "front" population count as a % of the total.

This is not my observation or at least I would suggest that it is a generalisation that is only occasionally actually accurate.

Particularly on large maps.

A horde may be operating on the extremes or central zones of a front. Parts of that front will be empty and other parts populated to varying degrees.

If the tendancy is to naturaly congregate in hordes then free moving players will do so even if the nations are subdivided.

We should not confuse horde concentration with overall population count neither should we discount the fact that (eventually) every force meets an  opposing force dependant upon the "threat"  [nation A does not allow nation B to walk over its HQ just because it wants to attack nation C]....as such the local population variance changes......its the whole basis of the 3 country rather than 2 country set.

The only mechanism I have seen to spread conflict is the zone limit ie a mechanism that actually limits the number of players to be using a field as their origin base. The maths of this can be applied in numerous ways
Ludere Vincere

Offline Midnight

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The "Airforces" Idea
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2005, 12:03:58 PM »
Too much dependanace on the map, where bases are, what the front looks llike, etc.

What if HQ is in A1's zone, and then C attacks HQ? What if A1 is not defending? A2 will be screaming at A1 to do something.... Whines galore.

What if A2 keeps loosing bases? A1 will scream at them to stop loosing.

It's a supply issue. We have infinite supplies, so we will always not need to worry about where the horde is at.

All games have some sort of control. New people to the game generally accept the controls as part of the game. If new controls are added, even if for the better, that's when people who have been playing the game start complaining.

Just an example was my softball leage. Players could use virutally any bat they wanted. Players found the La7 of bats that could hit a home-run almost all the time with ease, even by players with not-so-powerful swing. They all loved the bat. The league banned that type of bat. All the players WHINED because they now had controls on which type of bat they could choose. It's been a while.. they're over it now. The game continues.

Offline bustr

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The "Airforces" Idea
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2005, 02:36:32 PM »
A year ago we had similare numbers and a different gunnery mode. We got more bang for our collective buck and had a better chance of impacting the hoard by eliminating it faster. We fly just as well with the AH2 flight model as we did in AH1. We don't see the big strings of kills being landed now like in AH1 with the same regularity. I venture 1-3 kills landed if you land is the average now. In AH1 I saw alot more 3-4 kills landed on a steady basis.

Has our model of realism begun to impact our enjoyment of the game? These threads reflect a dissatisfaction\frustration factor thats a bit higher than the perceived fun factor.

With the different gunnery model of AH1, a handfull of good sticks had an enormous impact on a larger force. Now how much time is spent getting in close enough to be effective? And does close even gaurantee success? Are conga line cherry pickers still picking off the flanks and tail of the line with the same chance of success as in AH1?

Is it the numbers of players hoarding a given location, or is it something more basic? For all of the effort, are we getting a lower quality of personal satisfaction with the amount of time most are willing to put into the game? And what is the most basic form of satisfaction in this simm? Killing other planes.

Personally I'm seeing my skills getting much better due to the AH2 environment. But now when I get 200d on someones tail, I would not bet anything I own on whether or not pulling the trigger will give me a successful kill. In AH1 I would have bet on it, but I made most of my kills from 400-600d.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline detch01

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The "Airforces" Idea
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2005, 03:11:27 PM »
The idea is a non-starter AFAIC. It's just a variation of having "the system" assign where a player can play.
As for the hordes/lack of good fights/etc. whine. Last night Ghosts upped a bunch of fighter and jabo runs. Not once did we have a problem finding a fight. Our last excursion was in a bunch of Ki-61's on the S side of the terrain. We had lots of oppo come up and give us a good fight. It was a blast.
If you can't find a good fight already in progress, start one. Anything else is just a reiteration of "they won't let me win my way" whine.

my $0.02


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Offline bustr

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The "Airforces" Idea
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2005, 03:36:20 PM »
detch01,,,,I was just thinking about the hoards of less dedicated players. It's like a Martial Arts Dojo. You have junior students who may or may not make it. But their numbers pay the bills. You only have a few dedicated veteren students. If you make learning the Art as hard as the veteren students want it to be because they are the dedicated few, you loose the rent and have to close down the school.

When I was young,  still had good knees and less injuries, my Sensei took a vacation for a month. He left me in charge of the school. I made the lessons as hard as I enoyed them. 2/3 of the junior students quit, and we couldn't pay the rent. We went away with a reputation for being a tuff school, but we could never get the numbers back on the mats.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline SlapShot

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The "Airforces" Idea
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2005, 04:24:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bustr
detch01,,,,I was just thinking about the hoards of less dedicated players. It's like a Martial Arts Dojo. You have junior students who may or may not make it. But their numbers pay the bills. You only have a few dedicated veteren students. If you make learning the Art as hard as the veteren students want it to be because they are the dedicated few, you loose the rent and have to close down the school.

When I was young,  still had good knees and less injuries, my Sensei took a vacation for a month. He left me in charge of the school. I made the lessons as hard as I enoyed them. 2/3 of the junior students quit, and we couldn't pay the rent. We went away with a reputation for being a tuff school, but we could never get the numbers back on the mats.


I have quite the opposite story.

I too taught "kids" and I had the toughest class in the whole school ... including the adult classes. Yeah I lost a few who couldn't hack it, but for the most part, the parents were flocking to get their kid(s) in my class. Ya know why ? ... cause I was giving them their money's worth.

You didn't have to have fantastic talent as far as I was concerned, but you had better have globs of respect and dedication ... else I was your worst nightmare. I would sometimes sub for the adult classes and when I came out of the dressing room there would be an audible sigh ... You want to sigh ... I'll give ya something to sigh about ... are your thighs burning yet ?

Anyways ... I still run into some of the kids that I taught (most are in College these days) and every single one of them tells me that they wouldn't have done it any different ... when they got their black belt from me, they knew they earned it and that is something they will hold onto forever and nobody can question it.

Bottom line ... the point that I am trying to make ... don't make it any easier for anybody than it already is ... those who are wussys will quit no matter what ... those that stick around will reap the rewards of hard work and will always feel good about it.

Fist in the air ...

Kwe ... the sqaud thing will always kill an idea like this ... sorry.
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Offline bustr

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The "Airforces" Idea
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2005, 07:59:23 PM »
SlapShot,

I'm sorry I've never taught children Kenjutsu due to training with shinken. We restricted minimum age to 18, but more often the cost of a katana restricted the minimum age to about 27 due to having a stable income and a medical plan. Tenshin ryu Kenjustsu and Yamate ryu Aikijutsu are a bit too sever for children. I was not intending to be misleading. Just telling an old story.:)
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.