Author Topic: another one for you Laz.......  (Read 947 times)

Offline weaselsan

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2005, 06:11:00 PM »
If I lived in London and caught one of the prettythangholes in my house, I'd sit his prettythang down and force him to eat Chutney...that would make him think twice before he did it again.

Offline bustr

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2005, 06:17:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by weaselsan
If I lived in London and caught one of the prettythangholes in my house, I'd sit his prettythang down and force him to eat Chutney...that would make him think twice before he did it again.


When I lived in Luton as a small boy I remember many of my neighbors enjoyed Chutney. I thought Chutney was one of the benifits of the British Colonial system. So the logic is you are going to either feed him into submission or make him like you so much for feeding him he won't come back??????????
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Nashwan

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2005, 06:54:02 PM »
Quote
In Colorado we have the "Make My Day Law" (yes, from the movie) it says any force is reasonable as long as you are in immediate danger.....or something.


It's actually the same in the UK.

The amount of force that can be considered reasonable was defined by the law lords in 1971:

"If there has been an attack so that self defence is reasonably necessary, it will be recognised that a person defending himself cannot weigh to a nicety the exact measure of his defensive action. If the jury thought that that in a moment of unexpected anguish a person attacked had only done what he honestly and instinctively thought necessary, that would be the most potent evidence that only reasonable defensive action had been taken..."

I've yet to see a case where someone in the UK in recent times was convicted of a crime for using force to defend himself from attack, as opposed to using force to punish someone.

Quote
Err, the courts say that the people can't protect their own homes Furball...


Do they? Where?

What the law actually says is:

Quote
A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances for the purposes of:

    * self-defence; or
    * defence of another; or
    * defence of property; or
    * prevention of crime; or
    * lawful arrest.


From the crown prosecution service, guide to prosecutors.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2005, 06:56:24 PM by Nashwan »

Offline bustr

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2005, 07:15:29 PM »
Nashwan,

How would you have acted in Tony Martin's case? He did follow the law and procedures as required. But his properties were being repeatedly vandalised by known criminals while the local police did little or nothing to assist him. He had just spent a considerable amount to improve the properties to use as rentals. He was looking to improve his state in life through his self investment and subsiquent rental cash flow. He did not have the capitol to continuously repair his properties against the possiblity that the criminals would eventually rellent and go away. His properties were far enough from the local population centers that their location made them outside of the local police departments ability/willingness to monitor them.

So do you just toss him to the wind and tell him tiss off? Are you saying based on the law or is it your personal conviction that Mr. Martin should just let it happen because those criminals have more of a right to destroy his property than he has to enjoy the benifits of his property ownership? How do you have this both ways?:confused:
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline lazs2

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2005, 08:48:35 AM »
if a burglar breaks in then you need to use as much force as you can until he is not on your property.   As was pointed out... I don't know if he is running away to get cover so that he can get a better shot at you or not.

Morally... what you do needs to be what you think is best.  You are the one being invaded and put under all the undue stress... The law in the U.S. reads for the most part that so long as you feel your life is being threatened by their presence then you can use deadly force... several instances of home invaders being shot in the back have been considered justified by the courts here especially if the invader had previously shown agression.

If death is the only way to discourage a career of breaking and entering then it is a valid way.

and... burglars do not have rights while in someone elses home.

oh... and of course there are more urban burglaries and crime... city people are scum or they wouldn't live there.

lazs

Offline nirvana

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2005, 05:45:09 PM »
Yeah the police, or rather local CITY police do next to nothing or burlary, they give you a case number and your basically done.  Now the COUNTY police will do more but still not very much.  I believe you are just protecting yourself or your property there is not a problem in pumping some lowlife full of lead, it was his choice to burglarize someone he can pay the price for the owner catching him.
Who are you to wave your finger?

Offline GreenCloud

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2005, 06:03:41 PM »
nah..i dotn live in stinston..sweet area though....we been shark fishn latley out there..

holy sheite ..we hooked up to soem HUGE monsters out there..



i grew up in Suisun..


And its been more then a few years since Oaktown got Murder USA..

probaly thank Raider Fan for that 1..lolol

Offline Dowding

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2005, 06:24:36 PM »
So you read the press and decided the UK is full of burglary. I watched Fox News once and decided America is full of idiots. I'm not sure which judgement is more accurate, but to date I've never been burglarized.

BTW, reasonable force is a very flexible term of reference. The lack of consistency in its application is the problem. You could stab a burglar in the back without him even realising you are present and be aquitted. At the end of the day, if you can prove you believed that your life was in danger, you have the law on your side.

BTW, London is not part of England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland or indeed Planet Earth.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline lasersailor184

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2005, 09:47:39 PM »
Not quite Nashwan.


What the law says, and what the courts rule are two completely different things.  While they usually go hand in hand, it's a safe bet that they won't.
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Offline Dowding

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2005, 04:24:11 AM »
And how much of English law have you studied, lasersailor?

Ironically, what you opine, and what the reality is proven to be are two completely different things. While they usually go hand in hand, it's a safe bet that they won't.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Nashwan

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2005, 06:52:10 AM »
Quote
Not quite Nashwan.


What the law says, and what the courts rule are two completely different things. While they usually go hand in hand, it's a safe bet that they won't.


They actually do.

I've yet to see a clear case of self defence where the victim was prosecuted for defending himself.

I've seen plenty where he wasn't.

A few examples:

Thomas O'Connor, old man who stabbed dead a young drunk trying to break down his front door. Not prosecuted.
http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/news/s/84/84719_intruder_was_lawfully_killed.html


Antonio Caeiro, stabbed a burglar in the neck and chest, not prosecuted.
http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:5qNnHNnonYQJ:[url]www.norwicheveningnews.com/content/news/Story.asp%3FBrand%3DENONLINE%26Category%3DNEWS%26ItemId%3DNOED25%2BSep%2B2004%2B12%253A37%253A26%253A970+Antonio+Caeiro+young+offenders&hl=en&client=firefox-a[/url]

John Lambert, stabbed dead a burglar who was threatening his wife. Not prosecuted.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2550627.stm

Nick Baungartner, fought a burglar in his house, the burglar died of neck injuries. Baungartner was later awarded £300,000 compensation for the injuries he suffered.
http://www.news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/10/27/ncrime327.xml

John Campbell, stabbed dead a burglar who attacked him with a baseball bat, not prosecuted.
http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?q=Brian+Firmager+john+campbell&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&selm=tI4ZxVAodAcyEw0q%40sufo.demon.co.uk&rnum=1

Dean Davis, stabbed dead a burglar, not prosecuted.

Richard Watkins, stabbed an armed robber 4 times in the chest, killing him. Not prosecuted.
http://www.thisisworcestershire.co.uk/worcestershire/archive/2001/07/14/wen_news_latest14ZM.html

Joćo Henrique, arrived home to hear a burglar upstairs, got a bottle and waited at the bottom of the stairs, hit the burglar over the head. Not prosecuted, and was awarded £500 by the judge at the burglar's trial.
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=2878093

If you think the law is working th opposite way, please, find the cases to back it up.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2005, 06:54:48 AM by Nashwan »

Offline lazs2

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2005, 08:05:08 AM »
so what is different in those cases and the one of Martin shooting the burglars?   Is it the gun?   None of the cases you show involve guns?  is it somehow better to stab someone to death or beat them to death rather than shoot them to death?

here or england.... it is allways best to admit that you were in fear for your life when a stranger broke into your house and you killed him.

It just makes sense to use the most effective tool.

lazs

Offline DieAz

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2005, 08:16:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hawker238
Most definitely.  At that point its just revenge.



nope.
at that point, it is justice being served. period.

Offline Leslie

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2005, 08:36:31 AM »
I believe the location of your house has a lot to do with burglaries.  Or at least tresspassing your property to get to the houses across the street.   My side of the street doesn't get much burglar attention.  There's a park bordering the other side of the street back fence properties.  And the houses on that side of the street have been burgled because of an easy getaway through the park.

I'm lucky.  I don't have to carry a gun because my neighbor has one, and it seemed for awhile his property was the one the kids were crossing to get from the park to the the neighborhood street.

He set them straight one day when he was on his back porch having a whisky, and saw three youngun's jumping over his fence to cross his property.  They gave him backtalk when he told 'em to not cross his property and not come through there again .  He got out his .45 and said, I know who your dads are  and I'm going to them next time I see you around here.  Don't come back.


And they didn't!!!!!:D








Les

Offline Nashwan

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2005, 11:39:39 AM »
Quote
so what is different in those cases and the one of Martin shooting the burglars?


The difference is, Martin fired at men who were running away.

He used an illegally held shotgun (he had his shotgun licence revoked for shooting at a man and boy stealing apples from one of his trees)

He had told people prior to the even that he would kill the next person to break in.

He had laid various traps around the house.

He had told police investigating a previous burglary that he would like to get all the local gypsies, put them in one of his fields, and machine gun them.

Martin didn't even report the incident to police, it was only when one of the wounded burlars turned up at a house seeking medical attention that the police were called.

Martin had gone out, hidden the shotgun, and checked into a hotel, all without calling the police.

Above all, though, Martin lied throughout. His version of what happened did not fit in with the forensic evidence.

He claimed to have only fired from halfway down the stairs, he said he was too frightened to go further. However, 2 of the 3 shots he fired hit walls as well the burglars, and the places they hit were not visible from any point of the stairs.

The fact that Martin shot 2 men in the back, didn't report it to the police, and in fact fled the scene, lied about the events, had previously announced his intention to kill, and had set traps around his house and garden, convinced the jury that he wasn't acting in self defence.

A lot of the "facts" people believe about the Martin case are not facts at all. Two weeks after he shot the burglars, Martin hired Max Clifford, a "publicist" who specialises in sleaze and media manipulation (he also represented OJ Simpson).