Author Topic: Straiga your multi engine images  (Read 1816 times)

Offline HoHun

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Straiga your multi engine images
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2005, 06:20:06 AM »
Hi again,

It seems Multi-engine 027.jpg and /Multi-engine 032.jpg are missing, too.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Straiga

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« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2005, 06:25:35 AM »
HoHun there all in order those jpegs were deleted because of a Scanner cable problem.

Straiga

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2005, 06:31:28 AM »
Hi Straiga,

>I have look and look to see if theres in any enigne torque issues relating to multi-engines. As you see they dont mention any such thing.

Small suprise, the chapters you provided are all on directional stability, while torque is a matter of longitudinal stability :-)

But there's one highlighting sentence on page 3-19: "As a result [of sideslip], a negative rolling moment is created because of the differential in lift forces between the two wings."

This sideslip-induced rolling moment is what counters the torque-induced rolling moment. Note that page 3-20 also mentions an additional rolling moment generated by the vertical tail which also opposes the torque-induced rolling moment.

>I do agree that you just cant take any engine torque away from the airframe, its present. But in a multi-engine it is less prevalent then Prop Slipstream and P-Factor and yaw due to asymmetric thrust. They talk about light twins but I have found no difference from the big multies in the way they behave in flight.

I'd say the torque effects would be most noticable on small, high-powered aircraft. (I didn't pick the somewhat exotic He 219 example by accident :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Golfer

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« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2005, 05:05:56 PM »
I wanted to straighten out where I have stood the entire time.  Nobody has picked a bone with me in a while and that's probably not a bad thing.

I have always referenced in this discussion a multiengine airplane with 2 operating engines (Forget the single engined aerodynamics, that's a can of worms)

I have always said that torque does not magically disappear on a twin, in fact it doubles when compared to the comparable single  (for instance, a Cherokee-160 and a PA-23-160 Apache)

The amount of torque applied to the airframe is doubled.




Now, I have said always and still stand, that the effects of torque are not pronounced and also not a factor when flying a twin.  There are several reasons, but the big one is that with the torque creators located outboard of the fuselage and thus not aligned with any axis of the Center of Gravity they simply do not have the leverage required to roll the airplane.  They still create their force, however they can't roll the airplane.  (Not the case in a vaccuum, but we're not in outer space)

This is a different story in the Cessna 337 Skymaster or Adams A-500 with engine out.  They are Centerline Thrust airplanes (Engines mounted on the centerline...on the longitudnal axis of the CG) and without the engines to counter one another they will act just as a single would...with engine torque as a factor because torque now has the leverage it needs to rotate the airplane about the long axis of the CG.  

I'm quoting page 3-8 of the Pilots Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge (FAA-H-8083-25) because its handy and was on the desk.

Whenever an airplane changes its flight attitude or position in flight, it rotates about one or more of three axes, which are imaginary lines that pass through the airpalne's center of gravity.


We all learned day 1 in our private pilot ground schools that everything the airplane does rotates around its center of gravity and the effects of torque and what it would cause the airplane to do are no exception.  Newton was right, Equal and Opposite reaction.  However, Newton wasn't an aeronautical engineer or pilot.  His principal applies and is valid in this case, but because the airplane has no axis for the engine torque to have an effect...the airplane simply won't rotate.






We've gotten so far off track in talking about engine torque now we are talking about engine out aerodynamics in twins.  There are world class experts out there who don't know everything there is to know about this subject and I'm tempted not to touch that with a ten and a half foot pole.

But I will...

So many things happen so quickly when you lose an engine.  The most pronounced is a yaw toward the dead engine and a roll, which is caused by a lack of airflow over the wing of the failed engine (no power thus no slipstream).  To reduce Vmc its vital to bank into the good engine which uses the airplanes weight as leverage against the yaw tendency (and it is a yaw tendency) of that good engine so it won't throw you out of control.  

There are ways to determine Vmc, and they are a worst case scenario.  With much of the emphasis being put on producing maximimum possible power at max weight, and rudder control.

The FAA Requires that the airplane have the least favorable CG.  This is typically Aft, which provides the greatest arm between the CG and the downward moving propeller blade of either engine (more leverage, thus making it easier for that engine to Yaw the airplane) and also reduces the arm between the CG and rudder.  This will reduce effectiveness of the rudder to the bare minimum. There is also a stipulation that no more than 150lbs of pressure may be applied to the rudder.

With all this emphasis on rudder and creating the worst case scenario in terms of yaw and controlling it...I think it's pretty safe to say that the FAA is concerned about yaw more than roll as a certification issue.  This didn't just come out of thin air, lots of airplanes have crashed and people died giving us the rules, guidelines and standards we have today.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2005, 05:13:06 PM by Golfer »

Offline Straiga

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« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2005, 09:58:00 PM »
Well said Golfer

Straiga

Offline Straiga

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« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2005, 07:02:40 AM »
Quote
This sideslip-induced rolling moment is what counters the torque-induced rolling moment. Note that page 3-20 also mentions an additional rolling moment generated by the vertical tail which also opposes the torque-induced rolling moment


The sideslip-induced rolling moment is a byproduct of yaw and one wing tip moving faster through the air then the other, creating an asymmetric lift situation. Also one wing has induced airflow from the running engine and prop wash also creating an asymmetric lift situation. This is where the roll moment comes from. But the roll moment can either to the right or left depending which engine has failed and this is with two props turning in the same direction. One roll moment in the direction of torque and the other moment in the oposite direction of torque.

Additional rolling moment generated by the tail and rudder also opose engine torque-induced rolling moment. This why I have been saying all along that the P-51 does not use aileron on takeoff just rudder. Remember on any airplane, aileron are not truely effective until about 40 - 60 kts of airspeed. So what do you use until they get effective (rudder).

Quote
Small suprise, the chapters you provided are all on directional stability, while torque is a matter of longitudinal stability :-)


Its not a supprise in a twin they are very stable in the longitudnal axis, but directional stabilty is the key when losing one or more engines.

Quote
I'd say the torque effects would be most noticable on small, high-powered aircraft. (I didn't pick the somewhat exotic He 219 example by accident :-)


Try looking at a Piper Aerostar this is what your talking about small and high powered also a Mitsubishi MU-2. They are a dream to fly until you lose a engine. The MU-2 has differential spoilers too, this is a extreamly difficult airplane to fly single engine. These multies do not exert any engine torque rolling moments either.
Do you see my point! Multies are design for single engine failures. They are very stable in the longitudnal axis but directional axis they are deadly. So you have to design the airplane for a loss of a engine, which is all about directional control.

Later Straiga

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2005, 03:05:41 PM »
Hi Golfer,

>I have always said that torque does not magically disappear on a twin, in fact it doubles when compared to the comparable single (for instance, a Cherokee-160 and a PA-23-160 Apache)

>The amount of torque applied to the airframe is doubled.

>Now, I have said always and still stand, that the effects of torque are not pronounced and also not a factor when flying a twin.  

I think you're pointing out an important aspect here - torque being physically present on one hand and torque being a factor for piloting technique on the other hand.

I just disagree on the explanation you provide:

>However, Newton wasn't an aeronautical engineer or pilot.  His principal applies and is valid in this case, but because the airplane has no axis for the engine torque to have an effect...the airplane simply won't rotate.

The strange thing about torque as a physical phenomenon is that, unlike force, it is not located in space.

It will just generate a moment around an axis on an object, and the properties of the object will determine the location of this axis.

An example: Put a stack of bricks under the wingtip of an airplane on the ramp, and torque will readily attempt to roll the aircraft about the wingtip.

That's much harder than rolling it about the tyre contact point as it would without the bricks, or than rolling it about the centre of gravity as it would do in flight, because due to the moment arm defined by the difference between the axis of rotation and the location at which the opposing force is applied (centre of gravity), the opposing moment is rather large. However, the location only comes in for converting a force into a moment, not for the question whether the moment can act at all - it always does.

Why torque is  a non-factor in multi-engined aircraft is hard to figure out for a non-pilot :-) I'd suggest that the rotational inertia that skyrockets once you begin to move mass outboards will slow the aircraft's reaction to torque changes so much that other factors, like P factor, will render torque imperceptible.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2005, 03:14:02 PM »
Hi Straiga,

>The sideslip-induced rolling moment is a byproduct of yaw and one wing tip moving faster through the air then the other, creating an asymmetric lift situation. Also one wing has induced airflow from the running engine and prop wash also creating an asymmetric lift situation. This is where the roll moment comes from.

Hm, I was currently thinking of regular twin-engined flight.

Do you agree that to counter P factor in a symmetrical twin with equal-handed engines, you would use rudder to induce a slight side-slip?

That would open the question which force balances the sideslip-induced rolling moment, and I'd suggest torque as an answer :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline hitech

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« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2005, 03:59:33 PM »
HoHun,I do not belive the moment of inertia is the answere, we are talking about a constant force not a changing force. My guess is it is being offset do to slip stream effects having more wing area to hit.

HiTech

Offline Golfer

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« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2005, 04:24:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun


Hm, I was currently thinking of regular twin-engined flight.

Do you agree that to counter P factor in a symmetrical twin with equal-handed engines, you would use rudder to induce a slight side-slip?

That would open the question which force balances the sideslip-induced rolling moment, and I'd suggest torque as an answer :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


Clarify these:

Symmetrical Twin.
Equal-handed engines.


Do you mean Conventional Twin (Props both turn the same direction)

Do you mean Counter-Rotating propellers?

Offline Golfer

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« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2005, 04:37:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Straiga,

>The sideslip-induced rolling moment is a byproduct of yaw and one wing tip moving faster through the air then the other, creating an asymmetric lift situation. Also one wing has induced airflow from the running engine and prop wash also creating an asymmetric lift situation. This is where the roll moment comes from.

Hm, I was currently thinking of regular twin-engined flight.

Do you agree that to counter P factor in a symmetrical twin with equal-handed engines, you would use rudder to induce a slight side-slip?

That would open the question which force balances the sideslip-induced rolling moment, and I'd suggest torque as an answer :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


The stuff Straiga was defining is either:

 Adverse Yaw.  The tendency of the airplane to yaw away from the direction of bank.  As he said, one wing is moving faster through the air than the other with the ailerons deflected.

As you'd imagine, given that it says 'Yaw' in the name this is corrected by Rudder.

Proverse Roll (I think this is what you're/he was talking about) which is an airplane rolling in the direction of a rudder input.  There are lots of R/C rudder/elevator only airplanes out there, in fact I have two of them I use for unlimited RC Combat.  (SPAD, Simple Plastic Airplane Design).

Anyway, because the airplane is Yawing (example a yaw to the right) the left wing is moving faster (its moving forward of the CG) just as a water skier would going to the left of a boat wake.  Think of the skier as a wing and the line anchor on the boat as the Center of Gravity.

This extra speed creates extra lift and causes a roll to the right.


You can do one of a few things to correct for this.  Apply left rudder to regain a wings level (or nearly) attitude.  this will cause a slip in the other direction and lots of drag slowing you down.  You can use aileron to correct for it, also slowing you down.

This only happens when the rudder is deflected in flight, with the rudder trimmed and the ball centered, no such rolling moment exists.


In the case of the little RC airplanes, they're so grossly overpowered (.25 or bigger engines) for their weight (often less than 2.5 pounds) there's lots of power so slowing down isn't a problem.  Obviously, flying in a sideslip the whole way to your destination isn't an efficient way to get there.  You'll fly slower, thus longer and burn more fuel getting to the destination.

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2005, 04:42:05 PM »
Hi Golfer,

>>Symmetrical Twin.

With "symmetrical", I just to suggest that we have a perfectly symmetrical airframe (and engine mounts).

If we had a asymmetrical airframe (purposefully designed thus), that might already compensate for some of the effects we're interested in right now.

>>Equal-handed engines.

What I meant is that the engines turn clock-wise, or that they both turn counter-clock-wise. If "contra-rotating" is a technical term, is there also "co-rotating"? In German the latter is "gleichsinnig", I'm searching for the English equivalent :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Golfer

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« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2005, 04:45:55 PM »
Also, I haven't done much but I'm sure you can find lots of writeups about the DC-10 (United flight 232) that crashed in Sioux City, IA.  This airplane had a catastrophic failure of the #2 engine which severed all three independent hydraulic systems at once.  This left them with no control surfaces and only differential power to guide them.

They were trimmed for a certain airspeed (fast, maybe 285 kias?) which presented them the obstacle of dealing with a phugoid.  This is basically the airplane porposing while it flies faster/slower than the trimmed speed.

Doing a little research there may help alleviate (or create) some problems grasping whats/whys of inherent stability and aerodynamcics.

Offline Golfer

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« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2005, 04:47:53 PM »
Co-Rotating = Conventional Twin (the technical term) = Props in the same direction.

Looks like you've got it.

I wanted to make sure we were on the same page.

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2005, 04:50:23 PM »
Hi Hitech,

>HoHun,I do not belive the moment of inertia is the answere, we are talking about a constant force not a changing force.

My idea is that the constant force would be trimmed out by the pilot just like a weight difference due to asymmetric fuel use.

The pilot wouldn't be able to tell torque from a weight imbalance at constant power and rpm, so he wouldn't perceive it as torque.

That's why I think the pilot might look for roll acceleration more than for roll moment when he's looking for torque.

>My guess is it is being offset do to slip stream effects having more wing area to hit.

I agree that this effect is a primary suspect, too :-) However, I'm not sure the geometry is sufficiently different for it to be the only cause. Just think of the Twin Mustang that's still very similar to a P-51 in most dimensions. How is it going to compensate for twice the torque with less than twice the airframe?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)