Author Topic: Two left hands ...HELP !  (Read 738 times)

Offline Saintaw

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Two left hands ...HELP !
« on: June 07, 2000, 02:09:00 AM »
Well, after numerous 1/1 fights in the TA and countless dissasters in the MA, I found out the following :

After 7 months (*sigh*), If I start with advantage (and if I don't blow it, heh Spatula   ) I can usualy manage to get the bugger (that means YOU in the other plane)... BUT, if I start dissadvantaged, I have 99.9% of "buying it"...

Seems I haven't GOT A CLUE on how to reverse the advantage...

I usualy don't like to "scisor" or "barrel roll" to make the con overshoot, as I mostly fly the 190 or the P38 nowadays...and in these planes, if you are slow...you are dead (...well, I am anyway)

Sigh sigh sigh...

Saw
Getting shot at everyday, but still there, just to annoy you  
Saw
Dirty, nasty furriner.

Offline straffo

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« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2000, 03:00:00 AM »
We can have a gentleman agreement since I've two right hands   ....

However I'm lefty      

[This message has been edited by straffo (edited 06-07-2000).]

Offline bloom25

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« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2000, 03:09:00 AM »
I know the feeling Saw.  There really isn't much you can do if the other guy has a lot more E on you.  Here's what I do when in this situation:

A.  If in a faster plane, try to split-s as the enemy plane gets close. (1.2k or so)  If he tries to follow he will have a much wider turning radius.  If you roll back upright you may just be able to get a snap shot on him as he goes by.  Now if he doesn't follow you, perhaps the best thing to do is to run for friendlies after diving for speed.  Chances are that the enemy won't waste all of his E catching you only to find himself confronted with your teammates who are now higher than him.  If you plan to make a run for it, roll your plane during the split-s so that you are going at an angle that would require him to make a sharp turn to follow you.  This will reduce his E level and give you some separation.

B.  If attacked by a plane that suffers from compression at high speeds try to take advantage of this.  For example, you are being attacked by a high 109 and you are a 190.  The 109 will be unable to change directions if you can manage to exceed around 400 mph in a dive.  You on the other hand can roll very quickly and pull out much easier than he can.  Given this you should easily be able to get away for a short time by rolling away from him and then extending.  (Better hope friendlies are nearby as the 109 has a higher top speed and will catch you eventually.)  If the 109 is a rookie that can't use trim well you might even be able to get him to auger into the ground.    (P38s will also suffer control loss at high speeds.)

C.  If you are a plane with better guns than the enemy, try faking a HO.  Many experienced pilots will pull back up if you can manage to get your guns around on them.  Now you must continue to turn into the enemy until you can get help.  If you are very lucky you may even manage to climb to a co-alt position or even gain an E advantage given enough time.  A 109 with its high rate of climb and acceleration could theoretically gain an advantage over a p51 or 190 after just a short time.  The trick is to deny a guns solution long enough that the enemy will go away because he is losing his E advantage.  Basically you are trying to achieve a stalemate by not allowing the enemy to get a clean shot at you.  N1ks and Spits can do this very easily against p51s and 190s if you allow them to.

C continued:  Lets suppose the enemy accepts your HO.  This is actually good news, because a quick barrel roll should get him to overshoot and miss you.  You may then be able to dive and get away as the enemy continues to dive down himself in the opposite direction.  I also suppose you could try the HO if you are low on fuel and outnumbered.  

The real point of all of the above is to use your planes strengths to their fullest.  Since a 190 can roll very quickly, you can change directions rapidly in a dive and manage to escape.  Since 109s and p38s lose control effectiveness at high speeds, you can probably turn away from them and maybe even get them to auger.  Also remember that since you are slower than they are you will have a smaller turning radius.  You can take advantage of this by turning onto your opponent's 6 and maybe even manage a quick snapshot as he zooms back up.

The main thing is not to panic and keep countering every move the enemy makes.  Eventually an experienced E fighter will break off and run home.

Hope I've helped you a little.  




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Offline Saintaw

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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2000, 03:59:00 AM »
Thx Bloom,

My country mates are already used to the "Saw:hhhhhhllllppppppp!!!!!!!"  

I usualy do a Split S & Dive in the 190, but hehehe Spatz (My "Nemesis" I think) managed to follow me down... that guy owe to have a special Icon for me, saying : RUN !!! Start running !

 
Saw
Dirty, nasty furriner.

Offline Sharky

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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2000, 08:24:00 AM »
Saint,

 
Quote
BUT, if I start dissadvantaged, I have 99.9% of "buying it"...

Hehe, isn't that the object?  You said that when when you have the advantage you most often get the guy.  Then why are you surprised that when you are at a disadvantge you often get killed?

The FW190a8 is a poor dogfighter as it is, when disadvantaged the best move is to disengage.  When the 190a5 shows you'll find it to be a much better dogfighter, but still when disadvantaged the best thing to do is look for the door.  Come back later when the advantage is in your favor.

Now the P-38's manuverablity allows you some more options, but still if disadvantaged if you manage to reverse the position your attacker is going to have to make a mistake.  If he doesn't he is going to kill you, plain and simple.

In a situation where I find myself disadvantaged my first thought is to force the head to head merge.  After that if I have managed to level the playing field with regard to Energy level I "may" continue to press the situation, but normally when I have managed to force the situation from him on my 6 to head to head I will point the nose down and run.

IF I manage to gain enough seperation I may decide to reverse and reengage (depending on the attacking aircraft type and my perception of the pilot's skill) but more often then not when I press my luck after gaining the head to head I die if I don't disengage.

Drop me an email and we can set up some time in the TA to work on it.

Sharky


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Offline indian

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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2000, 11:02:00 AM »
Saw I read once that if you fly towards and slighty up into your oponent and keep doing this you will reduce some of his advantage.

What I try to do is never get below minimum corner speed which for the hog is right at 200mph. When the bogey is higher I will fly into him and climb towards him. Right after the over shoot turn towards him again (you may loose some speed but you will get it back)and climb some more. Repaet untill advantage is equal. Then sence you are most likely in the 190 you stand up on your seat and kiss your but good bye cuase you cant out turn nothin but the B17, any other plane take them out.  

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Offline wells

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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2000, 03:55:00 PM »
Whatever you do, be aggressive!  Make the guy work to kill you at least.  He might just make a fatal mistake.  If there are others around, go for one of them.  If you are gonna die, might as well take one of em with ya!

Offline Dune

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« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2000, 07:35:00 AM »
The real tricky move to get away (I believe Galland used it) is hard to learn but works pretty well.

If a plane comes in on you fairly hard (esp if the plane turns better than you do) roll and pull into a turn.  This will usually cause the attacker to roll and pull hard into the turn to pull lead on your plane and try to set up a shot.  But, when he does this your plane goes beneath the nose of his plane.  At this moment (btw, you've been looking back and watching him  ) you roll back to level and point the nose down.  This should give you some horizontal seperation by the time he figures out you're not still turning.

Like I said, it takes practice.  But can be effective.

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Offline leonid

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« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2000, 09:07:00 AM »
Saw,
Maybe I can help you, because in this late war environment I fly a low-alt, mid-war aircraft, the La-5FN.  Thus, I get bounced more often than not.  And when I used to fly WB I flew only VVS aircraft there too  

I've spent a lot of time trying to survive high 6 attacks, years of it, and a few tricks have come my way.

First thing first, if you spot a high con, start flying to the nearest friendly base immediately.

Next, maintain high speed - forget about climbing up to them at this point, you're just putting meat on their table if you do.  In fact, if you are very slow, start a little dive to give you that boost, then level out as speed increases.

However, what alt you do have, hold onto it, because you're going to need it.

You say you dislike using scissors or barrel rolls as evasives?  That's okay, I'm not too fond of them either, but learn how to do them, nonetheless.  And remember, 75% of a maneuver is the actual decisiveness you put into it.  If you feel half-hearted about a maneuver, then you're execution of it will be slow and easily anticipated.  Punch that maneuver, and your opponent will really have to work to follow.

Okay, so we're talking about maneuvers.  My all-time favorite evasive is a snap roll.  This trick works best against a con who's closing on your six from above at high speed, which fits this situation to a 'T'.  Keys to a good snap roll are:
  • roll in the direction of your engine torque.
  • at the moment of execution, cut throttle, then once out, punch it back up.
  • apply a vector change immediately before execution.  A turn, or pitch-up are preferable, though the pitch-up requires higher speed.
  • perfect the mechanics of the snap roll, itself, and find the highest speed that it can safely be done in your aircraft.
  • exit your snap roll somewhere between 180-235 degrees from your initial bank, then pull your stick toward you as you stabilize to really blow your attacker's gun pass.
  • maintain visual contact as much as possible with your opponent, especially as they overshoot.  Many times, a snapshot opportunity falls right in your lap immediately as your con overshoots.
9 times out of 10 your attacker will still have superior energy, even after a successful initial snap roll, so don't think about trying for an HO.  Instead, dive to build speed, point your aircraft back to home, then await the next attack.  The good news is if you can survive a few of these you may very well be able to knife fight your way out of trouble with a quick snapshot, or even establish a superior position, if they get greedy.

Another excellent maneuver is the split ess.  As long as you have altitude, multiple split esses can put the cards in your favor, should the attacker get greedy.

I think the snap roll will work very well with the 190, and the split ess, with the 38.
Just remember to keep speed up for either of these maneuvers.

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leonid, Komandir
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[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 06-08-2000).]
ingame: Raz

Offline Saintaw

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« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2000, 11:08:00 AM »
mhhhhh..... getting a little of this  , learning to work on cons as well & no longer force to kill em fast...

..& I thought soccer was tough   ...
Saw
Dirty, nasty furriner.

Offline -ammo-

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« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2000, 07:15:00 PM »
Hi Saw--Know that feeling. A manuever which I started using back in WB's days is the defensive spiral. if the con is intent on staying in close this is a great manuever. I just roll the AC on its back and do a split esse and repeat till speed reduces and then the manuever transitions into a defensive spiral, usually forcing the con to overshoot or disengage, either providing you with a snapshot oppertunity or somne room to extend.
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Offline humble

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« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2000, 01:04:00 PM »
Saintaw,

After reading the reply's I'd only add a couple of things.

1) the 190's roll rate is well above anything but the hog...so hi speed scissors are a good idea ( certainly open to other points of view )...as long as you stay reasonably fast you'll make a difficult target and can really cut into opponents E advantage.

2) The 38 is a truely pitiful ride (just my opinion) especially in a neg E condition. To me your best bet there is not to wait till the end game where your options get worse and worse...I'd work on a "mid-game" reverse. The best and easiest to learn is pretty simple, assuming a hi bounce at reasonable alt....would go like this....low or hi yoyo break on initial bounce ( watch for response..early hi yoyo best for you )...split-s on 2nd (break in same direction all times)...again early hi yoyo best...now as he comes in start another hi yoyo break EARLY...look for a early hi yoyo from con (he's trying to "saddle up" in vertical here)...now pull up right back into his yoyo...you've got a vertical HO at worst and often you'll get your nose up first since your converting E to alt and he's fighting his E...also his vis may not be perfect and you can catch a blind spot...key is being predictable early...then changing up once he's hooked.

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