Author Topic: P-38G spin recovery (Read 1817 times)

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #30 on:** February 04, 2005, 09:41:59 PM »

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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The P-38, (All models) suffers from a bizarre unrecoverable spin. There are those that will say "You just don't know how to fly it or you just don't know what you are doing", but that spin exists, I've tried to recover from as high as 15K and not pulled out.

I know that many of the die heard P-38 pilots here have said the same thing about the spins. But evidently, those of us who fly it constantly, and research it thoroughly, know nothing at all about it.

I never really experienced these spins all that much while flying the L as I was usually able to catch the spin early enough to stop it. Though, sometimes when I wasn't quick enough, I would enter into a spin exactly how you and other P-38 sticks have described it. Flying the J model now, it's more pronounced and not as easy to catch it in time to prevent it. It almost seems that at low speeds there seems to be some type of torque effect that is causing these spins.

ack-ack

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #31 on:** February 04, 2005, 10:47:34 PM »

No, the torque is the snap stall happening. The wind flow over one wing is not always the exact same as wind flow over the other.

The only time it'll be perfect is if the air is perfect, you are perfectly level and you pull perfectly straight up.

Captain Virgil Hilts · « **Reply #32 on:** February 04, 2005, 10:52:16 PM »

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Originally posted by lasersailor184
No, the torque is the snap stall happening. The wind flow over one wing is not always the exact same as wind flow over the other.

The only time it'll be perfect is if the air is perfect, you are perfectly level and you pull perfectly straight up.

Torque? The P-38 has zero net torque, not only do the props rotate in opposite directions, but the engines do as well. As long as both engines are healthy, and symmetrical power is applied, there is no torque to make a P-38 snap roll. That's why some pilots used differential throttling to both roll and turn. That's also why the P-38 turns and rolls at the same rate in either direction, and it can climb out in a turn and not stall as easily.

Straiga · « **Reply #33 on:** February 04, 2005, 10:58:41 PM »

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I never really experienced these spins all that much while flying the L as I was usually able to catch the spin early enough to stop it. Though, sometimes when I wasn't quick enough, I would enter into a spin exactly how you and other P-38 sticks have described it. Flying the J model now, it's more pronounced and not as easy to catch it in time to prevent it. It almost seems that at low speeds there seems to be some type of torque effect that is causing these spins.

Could it be asymmetric aileron? Does it feel more like a torque roll effect? Which 38s or any twins shouldnt have. If using aileron to level the wings at the point of stall this will only envoke a stall only use rudder.

Straiga

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #34 on:** February 05, 2005, 10:47:18 AM »

Wow Captain, did you even bother to read what I wrote?

Captain Virgil Hilts · « **Reply #35 on:** February 05, 2005, 01:37:50 PM »

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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Wow Captain, did you even bother to read what I wrote?

Yes, I did. Torque does not feel the same as assymetrical lift. If you are feeling something like torque, then there is a problem.

I am disagreeing with you that the "torque feeling" is just a "snap stall". And at the same time saying that there should be nothing that feels like torque, and why.

Now, I may not have near as much seat time as a lot of people here, I'll quickly conceed that. But I HAVE had enough seat time to feel the difference in torque rolling a plane over and the feeling of one wing stalling first.

Again, I'm not saying the P-38 shouldn't spin out of a stall. In regards to what you posted I'm saying I disagree with what you posted because the "feel" is wrong.

A torque roll feeling is the feeling of one side pushing the other over. It feels all together different than an assymetrical lift stall, which feels like one side falling out from under you. I suppose it's subjective, seeing how we're talking about "feel". To me, at least, there's a huge difference between the feeling of torque pushing a plane over, and the feeling of falling that a stall gives. To me, a stall that spins you out because one wing stops flying feels sort of like that feeling you get on a rollercoaster as it drops away on a fast downhill run, only you feel it on one side. Torque feels a lot more like something pushing one side up and over.

Perhaps I should have explained myself better. Pardon me if I disagree on a subjective issue such as "feel".

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #36 on:** February 05, 2005, 02:25:41 PM »

I was describing what happens in layman's terms.

To the unexperienced it feels like there's a torque being applied to the plane.

Redd · « **Reply #37 on:** February 05, 2005, 03:28:46 PM »

Glad you asked that Oldman ?

PS. I have the same problem whenever I fly the damn thing - that's why I don't

Captain Virgil Hilts · « **Reply #38 on:** February 05, 2005, 03:55:07 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lasersailor184
I was describing what happens in layman's terms.

To the unexperienced it feels like there's a torque being applied to the plane.

Sure. Okay. Like I said, it is a subjective thing, especially in a simulation that does not transfer motion to the body.

I will say that it acts like torque sometimes, it seems, by that I mean it SEEMS to snap to the right about 90% of the time.

I've learned to fly around it, like I've learned to fly around the auto retract, so I don't think about it as much anymore, and never bother to bring it up myself.

Had it not been for the fact that someone I KNEW posted the thread, I wouldn't have made much comment, if any. Like I posted in the last auto retract thread in the general forum. The whole thing is a dead horse.

Straiga · « **Reply #39 on:** February 05, 2005, 04:56:12 PM »

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Kweassa: "Hi I'm Kweassa Rivera, noted Aces High pilot and resident expert on the P-38 and how it should fly. I certainly know more than you could ever know about the P-38, and I think you are not telling the entire truth. I KNOW you are hiding something, and intentionally leaving out information. I'm going to investigate you and Lockheed, and open the vault containing your archives, live on national television, and expose you for the corporate stooge you are."

Thats to funny, Im LMMAO

Hey lasersailer184 you sail Laser? I have a olympic class 470 and Solying.

Hilts, good posts. I know theres something up with the 38 and other twins its aparent when the planes have a single engine failure then you really see whats going wrong, with the flight model.

Take a look at (Straiga here is your multi-engine images) in A&V then go fly single engine in a twin and see what happens it not even close.

Straiga

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #40 on:** February 05, 2005, 08:27:17 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Straiga
Could it be asymmetric aileron? Does it feel more like a torque roll effect? Which 38s or any twins shouldnt have. If using aileron to level the wings at the point of stall this will only envoke a stall only use rudder.

Straiga

It definitely feels like it's a roll induced by torque.

ack-ack

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #41 on:** February 05, 2005, 10:09:33 PM »

Yeah, I sail Lasers and Laser 2's.

But ever since getting to college, they have us doing FJ's and 420's. Such POS boats in my opinion. So much flash and nothing gained in speed.

But I also do Lightnings, some bigger boats like Catalinas, Sunfish, JY15's.

Straiga · « **Reply #42 on:** February 06, 2005, 06:31:50 AM »

I thought so laser. I was that close in collage to going to sail in the olympics. I single man my 470 from the trap. My old boats were a Shock 30 and Santana 525.

Later Straiga

AmRaaM · « **Reply #43 on:** February 07, 2005, 12:57:03 AM »

i always just push the stick forward and full right rudder then full throttle , maybe that just works for me since i seem to get into spins goin the same rotation, usually doesnt gain control for like 10 spins or something and maybe just because i use the 38 for semi bz'ing i always have 5k beneath me but also hardly make it back since most attackers just watch from above laughing i guess and then obliterate me when i've gained control and am only doing 200mph on the deck and a sitting duck.

Straiga · « **Reply #44 on:** February 07, 2005, 06:52:39 PM »

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It definitely feels like it's a roll induced by torque.

This were I think the modeling is wrong have you read Straiga here is your mutli-engine images.

I have trying all along to get this point out multies are not greatly effected by engine torque. Porp slipstream and P-factor effect the airframe far more.

I you tryed to follow what has been written in the papers about single engine flying in a multi-engine and relate this to AHII you can actually see whats wrong with the modeling. There is hardly any yaw, rudder is also not used, airspeed should decline rapidly due to sideslip, VMC doesnt change with altitude. These are some things I have noticed. Try it and get back to me.

Later Straiga