Interview with Ivan Ivanovich KozhemyakoTranslated by Ian Boys Part 6 - Soviet and German Combat Tactics.Q: Ivan Ivanovich, in our conversation the term "types of fighter combat tasks" often crops up. Can you expand on these different types and clarify, one by one, where the Messer was more effective and where the Yak?[/i]A: In those days, during the war, fighters carried out the following combat tasks:1. Free Hunt2. Maneuver combat with fighter opponents3. Fighter combat while escorting our attack aircraft4. Attacks on enemy bombers.Free Hunt was a hit and run attack. Whether with mg/cannon vs airborne targets or with bombs against ground targets didn't matter, the principle was the same: a single strike with the element of surprise then full speed away from the target.Here the Messer was beyond all the competition, considerably better than the Yak. Its higher speed already makes it better.I don't know exactly but I think the 109's metal construction must have meant it could carry a bigger bomb load. Also the later versions of the 109 had better cannon armament than the Yak.Q: That is correct, the Messer could carry a 250kg bomb, 50kg more than the Yak.[/i]A: There you are - that's why I'm saying the Messer is a much better aerial hunter than the Yak. If I flew just Free Hunt sorties I would choose the Messer every time. The ability to leave your opponent at high speed, to dive with high stability, to turn on boost simply - these are important qualities of a hunter-fighter. That's how hunter Messers could just fly away from Yaks - something a Yak couldn't do to a Messer.Q: That's very clear. Now, how would a Yak-1 fare in maneuver. combat with a Bf-109G, i.e. in a dogfight?[/i]A: This kind of fight generally happened when we had to "clear the air" but weren't escorting our own aircraft. It sometimes happened when we encountered enemy hunters, but less often. In this kind of fight there were no limits to speed or maneuver. and the Yak and Messer were roughly equal (if the pilots were of equal quality, of course). However there are still a couple of factors to consider:1. The fight had to be under 4000m. Above that the Messer had the advantage with a better engine for the altitude. The Messer would start to gain a significant speed advantage, over 20 km/h.2. If the fight took place under 4000m the Messers would also start with a slight advantage because at top speed it was better than the Yak in the vertical. A better climb rate allows you to gain altitude and thereby gain the initiative in the fight.3. However if the combat drags on, speeds start to fall and the advantage moves to the Yak. At lower speeds there is less scope for vertical maneuver and horizontal turns are of greater value. In this way Yaks gradually get the upper hand because of their better horizontal turn. Therefore extended combats are poor tactics for the Messer.Q: So by maneuver combat you mean an extended fighter-fighter engagement.[/i]A: Yes. As opposed to Free Hunt, escorting or attacks on bombers.Q: And is it better to have the advantage at the beginning or end of a fight?[/i]A: Better at the beginning. If you enter the fight right you can get the advantage, hold the initiative and kill your opponent. Or, if the fight is going badly, holding the initiative allows you to end the fight and escape at any time.And it did happen, the Messers that didn't get kills on us straight away just left the fight. They saw there was no point in continuing and left in the vertical, translating that into a dive, and there was no way the Yaks could catch them.Q: So how far would speeds have to drop to allow Yaks to gain the advantage?[/i]A: I couldn't tell you exactly. But I could feel the moment when he could no longer pull up and away - and I knew I could catch him. It was my turn! But you had to hurry - because the German also realized the situation pretty quickly and could end the battle by diving away and we would just have to watch them go.Q: OK, let's talk about Yaks and Messers as escorts for strike aircraft. I take it by strike aircraft you meant IL-2's or Ju-87's - low altitude planes.[/i]A: As escorts the Yak was far better than the Messer, no question.Q: Why is that?[/i]A: You see, a formation of bombers (or sturmoviks) limits your ability for vertical maneuver. The defensive fire makes it very difficult to break upwards after the attack, you can really only go to the sides.Therefore an escorting fighter with good horizontal maneuverability is better, so the Yak is better than the Messer.Q: But doesn't the Messer's speed advantage have a role to play?[/i]A: No, it's not much use when escorting bombers - you would lose them. Nor is it much use in chasing down attackers as you are not allowed to leave the bombers. In escort duties turning is the thing so the Yak is a good escort.BTW as an air defense fighter, i.e. against enemy bombers and their escorts, the Yak is also better than the Messer as attacks to break up enemy formations also rely on horizontal turns. Vertical maneuverability isn't much use.Speed isn't much use in attacking bombers either - the bombers can't attack their target at top speed or if they do they generally lose speed before firing [here he means strafing/rocket attacks]. If they attack at maximum speed they probably won't hit or if they do it will be with insufficient weight of fire to reliably destroy the target. And, as I said, they normally exit horizontally.Q: Can we discuss an example then? Show how fighters cover attack aircraft? Ours and the Germans.Let's say, six Yaks are covering 6 Il's and are attacked by 6 Messers. Is that a realistic ratio?[/i]A: Yes, that's realistic - it happened several times. In the second half of the war the Yak to Il ratio was often 1 to 1, so 8 for 8, 6 for 6, 4 for 4 etc.to be continued if people are interested
Part 2 - EscortingQ: Can we discuss an example then? Show how fighters cover attack aircraft? Ours and the Germans.[/i]Let's say, six Yaks are covering 6 Il's and are attacked by 6 Messers. Is that a realistic ratio?A: Yes, that's realistic - it happened several times. In the second half of the war the Yak to Il ratio was often 1 to 1, so 8 for 8, 6 for 6, 4 for 4 etc.Q: What formations, speed and spacing did the Il's and the covering Yaks use?[/i]A: The Il's fly in an arrowhead at 1000 - 2000m alt. The six Yaks fly in pairs, to the left, to the right and above the Il's. The pairs out to the side are about 3-400m out and a little higher, maybe 100m. Those above are 500m higher. If the Il's turn right, for example, then the left hand pair stay with the leading Il and the right hand pair cover the trailing Il. Of course, the Yaks have to fly in zigzags, always checking the surrounding airspace. The Il's are doing 300-350, the Yaks 400-450.At the target, if there are no enemy fighters, the Il's set up a circular pattern and "work over" the target in multiple passes. Our Ivans don't like carrying ammunition home. We go 500m above and 500m to the side and zigzag around, checking for bandits. After the attack is finished we form up as I said before.Q: Right, let's say that six Bf-109G spot you on the way to the target. How do they attack? And did they generally attack as you approached the target or as you headed home?[/i]A: Mostly on the approach, sometimes on the way home.The Germans were very calculating and careful and didn't lose their heads in an attack. Generally they flew 500m above the top Yaks and set up a wide circle in and out of the clouds (if present), waiting for a good moment to attack. When that moment came, the attack was normally by a single Messer at full speed - a sharp dive at 600-620 km/h. Mostly he came out the sun and was aimed at the trailing Il. He aimed to strike at top speed, kill the Il, turn away and race back up to altitude.A variation on this was an attack from below. The German dived well below the Messer and skimmed the ground at high speed and then attacked the Il in the belly before breaking away to the side and upwards.Before the attack other Messers might simulate an attack to disorient us, causing us to miss the real attack. Still, sometimes they didn't and the attacker just relied on surprise.Q: Let's say you are leading the pair covering the rear Il when you see a Messer beginning his attack. What do you do?[/i]A: The pair head right for the attacking Messerschmitt on an interception course, climbing if he is above or diving if he is below. We fire barrier fire [across his nose]. Chances are, I won't hit him, because the chances of a hit are low (though they did happen) but I can force him away from him planned attack path. After passing him I do a tight turn (important: keeping the Messer in sight) and fire after him. I can't catch him - I'll be doing 450 or so and he 600-620 but I will mess up him aim. Aiming is tricky with tracers racing past your cockpit. Of course there's always the chance I will hit him, even with just 1-2 rounds).If the bandit went low and I have enough room sometimes I don't head for him but let him past as though I haven't spotted him and then I do a tight turn and drop right on his tail. In general, it's a question of distance.In addition the Germans are facing fire from the defensive heavy MG's on the Il's, which isn't much fun either.Q: And what does the Messer do?[/i]A: Well the German pilot has 2 choices:1) He can ignore me and the gunners on the Il, slow down and fire accurately at the Il. If he gets it right he has a good chance of a kill. This option is dangerous, though, and I could catch him (I'm at full power, picking up speed while he is slowing down). The Il gunners also have a much greater chance of hitting him.2) He can mount a full speed attack. The risks are lower but the chances of killing an Il are small indeed (though it happened). The Il is maneuvering, the difference in speed between the Il and Messer is great. The German can only shoot at the Il, no chance at all of aiming at the cockpit or the oil cooler. Therefore with this method the German will either miss completely or just put a couple of rounds on the target, just one of which is explosive, hardly fatal for the armored Il.Q: Which option did the Germans normally choose?[/i]A: The second, of course! The Germans never slowed down! Full speed strike and up into the vertical. If he slows down I'll catch him. Germans didn't like risks. The first option was only used when they had 100% surprise, when the German sees there is no opposition at all. Only then would he slow down.
Part 3Q: What did the German pilots do after the attack?A: He would pull away to the side of the Il’s and go past them then up into the vertical. My pair would, while the enemy is climbing away, move back into position. I wouldn’t chase after the Messer, also because to leave the Sturmoviks was categorically forbidden.Q: Would there be more attacks?[/b]A: Normally no. Why? Well, for a start, they don’t have a numerical advantage. Secondly, if my pair drove off the attacking Messers they would have understood that they are up against experienced pilots, not rookies. It’s dangerous flying against experienced pilots – you can get killed. Thirdly – during the first attack the German pilot could count on surprise – there’s no question of that in a second attack. Attacking with no surprise and equal numbers was a risk that, in German eyes, wasn’t worth taking.So single attack if they are outnumbered, multiple attacks only if they outnumber us. In that case they will try to split us away from the Il’s. In this case they really make an effort and it is very hard to drive the enemy off. That kind of fight can go on a long time.Here you have to know about another small nuance: if the Germans outnumbered us and we lost an Il we were escorting we would just be “told off”. But if they were less than us and they killed an Il then the escorting fighter pilots could expect a court martial. In any case – we put up a good show irrespective of enemy numbers but at least there were no courts martial for losing Il’s when I was in charge, though there had been before me.Q: Were they prosecuting less or were you becoming more reliable escorts?[/b]A: We were more reliable.Q: Did it sometimes happen that the German pilot, after attacking, would overshoot the formation of Il’s, either above or below?[/b]A: No. The Il would be behind him and the Il’s fixed guns (and they were very powerful) could tear him into tiny pieces. No, they went to the side of the Il then up into the vertical.Q: And would the Germans attack during the Il’s ground attack, while they were circling?[/b]A: No, they wouldn’t drop into the anti-aircraft gunfire nor would they try and take on Il’s in a circle. Circling Il’s are almost impossible to break up. The Messers just wait until the Il’s head home and break the circle.Q: If they attack you on the way home, did the German tactics change?[/b]A: No, it was the same. It was harder for us though because the formation of Il’s was spread out.Q: Did the Germans ever attack with more than one aircraft at a time, in a pair or group?[/b]A: No, I can’t remember any such cases. Always singly.Q: How do you explain that?[/b]A: Well, you’d have to ask the Germans.Q: And what would you have done if they had?[/b]A: We would have counter-attacked head on with a group. This option had also been foreseen and considered.Q: And did the Germans sometimes circle around you then decide not to attack?[/b]A: No. It might just have been a single attack by one aircraft but they would always try it, whether from below or from above, at high speed.Q: Did the Germans sometimes attack you instead of the Il’s? What did you do then?[/b]A: Yes, sometimes they did. I countered this the same way I would counter an attack on the Il’s – a head-on counter-attack and then a turn onto the bandits tail in the blind spot below and behind him so that he loses sight of me. If he [slows down/turns] even a little I’ll hit him.Q: As far as I understand it, him attacking and you driving him off wasn’t counted as air combat?[/b]A: No, air combat is the “carousel”, when both sides are trying to achieve their tasks through maneuver combat. And “approached, was driven off” was just an engagement.Q: The principle of your escorts if clear, above and to the right and left. But did this change when you had more fighters?[/b]A: No, let’s say there were 12 Il’s, then they would be covered by a flight of four left and right, a pair 500m above and another pair 1000m above. The principles didn’t change.If we have a lot of fighters we might send 4 to 6 out to meet the enemy fighters to try to drive them off or tie them down in a fight. But the Germans outnumbered this group they were very happy and would forget about the Il’s altogether and threw themselves on these guys. But the Germans wouldn’t enter maneuver combat if they were outnumbered.But we could never throw all our own fighters into the battle. Even if some of us were engaged with the German fighters, the rest had to stay in close escort with the sturmoviks and didn’t enter the fight.Q: And if you just had one zveno, four fighters, what did you do?[/b]A: Much the same. One pair covered the trailing Il and the other flew above.Q: I understand that you covered Pe-2’s as well. Did that make a difference to how you escorted them?[/b]A: Yes. For a start we flew at altitude. The Peshki were at 3000m and we were still higher. Secondly, the side pair/four flew 400-500m higher than the bombers and the central pair/four 600-1000m higher. Thirdly, the bombers flew faster, especially after the target. I didn’t like covering Pe-2’s – they were harder to cover the Il’s. For a start because of their high speed they were easy to lose and you [turn and] drive off one attack and they’ve almost disappeared.Secondly – because they fly faster, further and higher than the Il’s, our fuel consumption is much higher. Therefore on such flights we often had external tanks.Thirdly – It was hard to check the airspace below us. The Pe-2’s were high, we were still higher and it was easy, therefore, for the Messers to attack from below. It’s true that the Pe’s lower hemisphere was covered by a gunner who could help drive off an attack but the fact remains, it was harder to escort Peshki.That’s where Il’s were better – on the way home they would often drop to 150-200m so couldn’t be attacked from below. Nor could they be attacked in a steep dive – it’s practically impossible at 600km/h.Q: OK, let’s turn things around now. Six Messers are escorting six Ju-87 and have to drive off an attack by six Yaks. How did the Germans escort their bombers?[/b]A: Completely differently to us.The Junkers flew at about 2000m in an arrowhead and the Messers would zigzag a thousand meters higher. On the approach to the target the 109’s would leave the bombers behind and race forward to engage our fighters that were covering the target area. Before their attack they would try to gain altitude so as to attack our fighters at maximum speed.While the Messers are engaged, the Junkers form a circle and bomb undisturbed. They make one attack each, unlike our Il’s (the Germans didn’t enjoy their attacks) then headed home at top speed. Then the Messers disengage.That’s how the Messers covered all their bombers – Ju-87’s, Ju-88’s, He-111. But the latter two wouldn’t form a circle before bombing though – they bombed in their usual nines.Q: Which method, ours or the Germans, led to less losses among the bombers?[/b]A: I’d say losses were similar.
Q: What was stopping us from doing what the Germans did, leaping ahead and engaging the enemy fighters at high speed?[/b]A: Well you see, both tactics have their advantages and disadvantages. We considered that the disadvantages of the German tactic outweighed the advantages.Q: Can you list the advantages and disadvantages of the two tactics? Let’s start with ours [the Russian method].[/b]A: OK, first the disadvantages of our method:1) The fighters operate at low speed which means they can’t effectively follow[?] the bandit.2) The combat is conducted defensively – the enemy has the initiative.3) Our method relies on close cooperation between the pairs of fighters and between the fighters and sturmoviks.4) Higher exposure of our fighters to AA fire. We stayed with the sturmoviks even through the target AA – of course we didn’t go right into the worst of it but sometimes we still go hit. If they were firing at the Sturmoviks it meant they were firing at us too.5) I’m not even sure if this is a disadvantage -. Low effectiveness. With our method it was very hard to get a kill. Almost all our attacks were on interception courses from the front, hard to get hits. We didn’t shoot them down, we drove them off.Advantages of our method:1) The attack of the sturmoviks (or bombers) came as a complete surprise to the enemy [at the target].2) Our tactics helped protect the formation of bombers because:a) It was effective when our fighters were outnumbered.b) Our tactic prevents any enemy fighter that does break through from shooting down several bombers one after the other.3) The combat is conducted in the horizontal, which is better for our aircraft.Advantages of the German method:1. The fighters start the fight at high speed and often with an altitude advantage and therefore hold the initiative right from the start of the fight.2. The combat is conducted offensively with a high degree of surprise [against the enemy fighters] and you force the opponent to react to what you are doing rather than vice versa. It’s also quite effective in terms of kills as you’d expect with surprise attacks.3. The combat is conducted in the vertical, at least at first, where the Messer is particularly good.4. Their fighters took next to no AA losses. They didn’t enter the AA fire zone.Disadvantages of the German tactics:1. The lose surprise in the ground attack. The appearance of fighters before the arrival of the bombers means that all the air defense systems in the target area are on maximum alert and all the other units can take cover. The effectiveness of the bombing attack is thereby reduced, sometimes quite considerably.2. The German defense is one-sided. They engage only those of our fighters that they can manage to tie down. By leaving their bombers, even briefly, they leave them very vulnerable to attack from other directions where there are no German fighters.If even a single pair of our fighters appears at the right moment, in fact even a single plane, the German bombers have had it. Even just one attacking pair, without scoring kills, can break up a bomber formation and therefore break up the bombing attack.3. The German tactic is ineffective if carried out by a smaller number of fighters than the enemy has or if they cannot seize the initiative (the defending fighters have prepared by gaining speed and/or altitude.)Q: I’m not sure I understand how our tactics can work when the enemy outnumbered our fighters.[/b]A: Well, when the sturmoviks or bombers are in a good formation the avenues of attack are quite limited. An example – nobody is going to attack head on, so why put cover there? That is to say, the job of the escorting fighters is to cover the enemy’s approaches to the bombers. If they can do that then a pair or two can effectively drive off a greater number. It should be said though, that not all pilots are capable of this. Under the German system, you have to secure all the approaches to the bombers, not just the attack routes, and in all directions. You can’t do that if outnumbered, it’s simply physically impossible.
Death of a 262[/b]You know some guys in our Regiment shot down a Messer-262 jet? Let me tell you what happened. The first time I saw this messer I was in the alert pair and he flew over our base. At that time we were 25km from Berlin. He flew over our base and literally in front of our eyes started shooting up the Breslau-Berlin autobahn, which was packed with vehicles during the build-up for the attack on Berlin. He made a terrible mess - smoke, fire, exploding ammunition. After that there'd always be a Messer jet attacking that autobahn, 2 or 3 times a day, completely ignoring both our base and our fighters. As well as that, the same German flew propaganda missions - dropping leaflets with a message from Hitler to the encircled defenders of Breslau and Spandau, which at this time were deep in our lines. They translated the text for us and it ran something like this:"Heroes of Great Germany - do not give in, hold on! In a very short time I will deploy our new set of weapons and we will smash the Bolshevik hordes! As a guarantee of my words - this modern aircraft! Soon we will have thousands of them! Hold on - victory is close!" They did hold on too - they were fully besieged yet their trams were running, their factories were working.Our side were so fed up with this jet that the commander of our air army ordered that it be brought down by any means necessary, including ramming. Easy to say, but you try it when he's doing over 800 km/h. We called the jet the "vulture". As soon as anyone said "vulture" [an otherwise common name for enemy planes] everyone knew which plane he meant.They shot him down by chance, one could say. The German simply made a mistake. He was so contemptuous of our aircraft that it did for him in the end. He had the habit after attacking (and he preferred fuel convoys) of doing a circle so he could admire his handiwork. This circle was carried out at about 400 km/h. Anyway, he shot up a column as usual then started his "traditional" circle, banking his plane so that he didn't spot six Yaks taking off from our base under squadron commander Kuznetsov. Those six Yaks were meant to be escorting six Sturmoviks but as the German was clearly visible from our base the Regimental commander got on the radio and ordered the Yaks that were taking off:" Lads! Get that vulture over the autobahn!"They attacked him in a pincer [?], by the book, correctly, and started pouring it on from all sides. The German saw them but too late. He tried to escape and almost made it. It looked like he was pulling away towards Czechoslovakia and our guys thought, that's it, we won't catch him now. But then they saw the Messer drop down and land on its belly. That meant they had hit him. They flew back to base and reported that they had killed a Messer jet, but as to who exactly had shot it down they couldn't say. They all fired and the old hands had the same chance as the rookies (the flight included experienced and inexperienced pilots, one was just on his second combat mission). The Regimental commander reported it to the division, the division to the army and the army to Moscow. From Moscow the order came back immediately - send the Regiment's engineering officer and as many trucks as necessary together with a security detachment and get as much as possible out of that Messer. They took two trucks, machine gunners, the necessary technical personnel and went to the crash site. There they found the aircraft and, a small distance away, the body of the pilot .It became clear that the Messer had taken a round to the cabin that had obviously seriously wounded the pilot. He had just had strength to somehow get a few hundred meters to a small stream and there, it seemed, he had lost consciousness and did of blood loss. On his body they found documents that showed that he was a factory test pilot for the Messerschmitt company. There was a jet fighter factory in Bratislava and this dead Messer had flown from the factory's field. Our guys worked on the Messer day and night and took everything, including the engines in their housings. Then a couple of Li-2's arrived and took it all back to Moscow. Well, soon our troops entered Bratislava and captured some brand new jets right at the Messerschmitt factory.
