Clover Leaf Manouver -P38

[Tac]

How-to, film of it?

Help! =)

[TheWobble]

I second!

[Exile]

I got this from this site: http://www.virtual-videographics.com/404tfw/Training_advanced.htm

"To perform this maneuver, pick a point 90º off the nose in the direction of turn. At 450 KCAS minimum, above 5000 feet AGL, MIL power, begin a wings level 3 G pull. At approximately 45º nose high, decrease back pressure and start a rolling pull in the direction of the 90º point. The rate of roll should be planned to reach a wings level inverted position with the nose on the horizon at the 90º point (airspeed approximately 200 - 220 KCAS). Continue the maneuver as in the backside of a loop, playing the G's to arrive near the entry airspeed and altitude."

hope this helps

[Tac]

thanks. Now to convert F-16/jet terms into P-38 terms... then to layman's english...

*neuron overload*

gaaaahhh

*thud*

[Westy]

Thanks Exile    Although I have to echo TAC. I feel like I just walked into a course on IP protocal and now I need to picture what the 3rd segment of the packet means       I'll pay with perk points to anyone who can post camera footage on how to do this. Please?  

I found this but not sure if this an ACM maneuver or a civilian acrobatics maneuver:

 

"The maneuver is entered from level flight at approximately 38 degrees elevation and consists of one full inside loop, level flight, three-fourths of an outside loop, vertical climb, three fourths of an outside loop, level inverted flight, three-fourths of an inside loop, and a vertical climb. The right loops are tangent to the left loops along a vertical plane of symmetry through the center of the clover leaf, and the bottom loops are tangent at the top loops. The loops are of equal size and they are connected by horizontal and vertical flight paths. The bottom points of the maneuver shall be at the 1.5 meters (4.9 feet) height, and the top shall be tangent to the vertical plane through the circle center. When the last loop is performed, the maneuver is made complete by a vertical climb through the center of the four-leaf clover. (Exit the maneuver over the top of the circle into the wind, returning to normal level upright flight on the other side of the circle.)"

-Westy

[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 03-05-2001).]

[214thCavalier]

"Thuuuuud"  !

[Tac]

Ok lets see if I understand (thnx for the pic westy, it gives tremendous help!).

Level flight... high speed (I suppose.. you do have to loop). So i'd say around 300-350mph.

Nose up 38 degrees (the loop on the top left of picture has 38 degree angle) and do the top part of the loop as shown on the top left of the picture.

Then level flight until you pass the middle point and do a split-s (the lower right part of the picture)... then zoom straight up... (here we enter the top right part of picture) and do that upwards portion of the loop (aka, top right of pic). Level flight (towards the middle point), then do another split s and zoom up (bottom left of pic), exiting in a hammer manouver.

COOL! took me 3 cups of aguardiente to achieve this enlightment!

Then I noticed the pic had each loop labeled in the order they should be done and had nice arrows. Gah! =P

Ill try in in the TA and film it.

is there any way offline to set the fuel damage/radiator damage trail be longer (to make a smoke trail long enough to simulate those airshow smoke?). Would be cool!.

[Tac]

Tried it in combat just now.

Seems only usefull when being jumped by cons with alt adv. the 38 degree climb is definetely out of the question, in AH you will get sprayed at long range. I believe it will also work quite well if the con is coming at you from low area and has high speed (aka, after a power dive).

The result was, after an F4U and 109 jumped me from high 6, 109 having the highest E (dived on my 6 from straight above me), hog having slightly dived from 3k adv. First loop both planes did more elongated loops on the 1st phase, then as I got back to 350mph on the downwards portion of loop-then level for a sec... f4u and 109 were below me and gaining (their loops being more elongated made them exit their loop below me and faster than I was)...

I did phase 2 (split-s).. the hog and 109 again were too fast to follow me and shoot, their downward loops being again wider than mine.. the 109 seemed to have a problem getting its nose up (mustve been at 500mph while I was at 420mph). F4U , having a wider loop due to its higher speed exited the split-s on my far 6 (d1.1) and below me. Since phase 3 starts with a zoom up until 180-200mph, I did that... 109 was climbing real fast to me as was the hog, at 200mph I fliped the plane over... the 109 and hog were far too off-plane to be able to nose up and shoot me.

On the dive&level to start phase 4 I gained my 340 mph again, 109 and f4u at that point were higher than my tail and acelerating to me at d900+... split-s to do phase4, once again, the hog and 109 were too much off-plane and too fast to get a deflection shot on me.

At that point, I was about to zoom up and hammerhead (last part of manouver) when I saw enemy goon over my burning field... so I went for the goon at 480mph... at which point the 109 and hog shot me to hell when they exited their split-s at near lightspeed.

But I bet the last part of the manouver wouldve left the 109 overshooting me yet again, the hog may have shot me to pieces on the hammer.... yet the hog may have fallen for the hammer... who knows.

So I'd say this only works against LW iron and P-51's and maybe P-47's (quick e-bleeding on climb yet fast on diving). Might be good against Yaks and La-5's due to their speed and weapon ballistics.. and that they have to be close to shoot  

WARNING: By no means EVER try this on a tiffie. Calamari whipped my bellybutton on his steroid pumped tiffie before I even got to phase2. 3 times!     and sure as hell dont even think about it against a n1k... it will turn inside your loop at 120 mph and at 500mph no matter what.

[Andy Bush]

hehehe...

The 'cloverleaf' that was being referred to as an A2A technique is a single plane (two dimensional) maneuver as I understand it...while the Cloverleaf aerobatic maneuver is a three dimensional maneuver that has zero application to air combat.

The 'clover leaf' BFM technique seemed to be an exercise in using slow speed rate of turn to generate angles for a short period of time before unloading to regain energy...then the process would be repeated...as in "pull and turn...unload and accelerate...pull and turn, etc". We can only take the word of the RW pilots that this technique actually 'worked'.

If anyone wants an explanation of the airshow aerobatic Cloverleaf maneuver, just ask!

Andy

[Tac]

Please, if you know the combat version of the clover leaf, let me know. The one I tried above seemed to work against opponents that have 2 or 3 times the E you have.

[Andy Bush]

Tac

Maybe this will help. Please note...this is just my interpretation of the maneuver as described by the WW2 pilots. I never flew anything like this in my RL experience.

Andy

 

[Tac]

Awesome. That makes a lot of sense! Thank you!!!

[Lephturn]

Nice work, thanks Andy!

Just a note, would be particularly suited to the P-38 because it has a great instantaneous turn rate, coupled with good acceleration.  I wouldn't try this with any other allied fighters because of their poor acceleration, but in something like a George or a 109-G10 it might be beneficial as well.

Hmm, I wonder if you did small high yoyo's in the pull phase.  I'd bet that's part of using it right.  In fact if you look at a flight path from the top where a faster bogey does three high yoyo's to get around the circle, it would look very similar.

------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!