Question on airwar in Vietnam

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Some, that now owned factories with really heavy outdated equipment that was used to build parts for panzers etc. simply SCRAPPED the whole factories and sold them for SCRAP IRON! .

Makes sense, if they are so out of date they have more value as scrap iron, than scrap it.  The iron will be put to better use.

[Dago]

Originally posted by Thrawn
Makes sense, if they are so out of date they have more value as scrap iron, than scrap it.  The iron will be put to better use.

You dont think they might have wanted to consider updating rather than completely scrapping the whole factory?

Maybe look forward, plan and build for the future rather than grapping the quick buck?

Remember the "give a fish/teach to fish" idea?

dago

[Siaf__csf]

Yeah not to mention that the workers got about $1 worth and the manager traded his worthless currency to a multi-million dollar establishment.

Many of those newly riches got lynched quickly later. Gee, I wonder why?

[FUNKED1]

Boroda has posted some retarded stuff in the past, but I can't for the life of me see why this thread needed to be turned into a personal/national hate fest.

[Siaf__csf]

Hmm.. this is history as it happened. How does that translate to a hate fest?

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Dago
You dont think they might have wanted to consider updating rather than completely scrapping the whole factory?

Maybe look forward, plan and build for the future rather than grapping the quick buck?

Remember the "give a fish/teach to fish" idea?

dago

Sure, why do you think they didn't consider it?  Maybe because they were commies and this whole captialism thing was new to them?  Exactly who was going to pay for the upgrades and how?

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Dago
That was a giggle wasn't it?

If Pravda said Russia built the Sun and the Moon, boroda would come on this board and swear to it as fact.  

dago

That is simply false.
Boreroda has only laid claim to lighting the fire on the sun, not to the actual building thereof. Conform comrade before it is too late.  

[Siaf__csf]

Maybe because they were commies and this whole captialism thing was new to them? Exactly who was going to pay for the upgrades and how?

There were businessmen who created a successful business out of the factories and then there were thieves who cheated the stock from the workers for practically no price and then scrapped the whole functional plant for a quick buck.

I heard stories that high quality milling machines were sold for scrap metal when you could have sold them on the regular market for $10000. This means that the persons behind the selling did not:

A) Give a rats bellybutton about the workers OR the economy of the whole nation

B) Were greedy as hell and opted to have 10% immediately instead of getting 100% in the long run.

These people did a serious crime against thier nation as they crippled a large chunk of the production capability which was a requirement for any kind of capitalist system to work in the first place. The workers aided in this because they had no idea at that time of the value of the stock. Even if they did, they were extorted and threatened to sell (mafia works well in Russia.)

Well, some of those machines were sold later for 10x the price as soon as they passed over the border. Still a bargain for any western machine shop.

One of the things SU was good at was milling machines and optics (surprising, coming from me isn't it? ). You could buy high quality optics for a camera for a fraction of the western price.

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Boroda


Here are some numbers from unknown sources for SAM aces:

Chan Say ("unit" commander; 196?)
VietCong Fam Chyong Uiy (division commander; 43?)
VietCong Nguyen Suan Day (division commander; 40?)

Not speaking about Soviet advisors and their scores... It's the only hope - if Russia will open the archives as we did for Korean war material, there will be reliable (classified) material about Soviet combat victories there.

 

How do you quote numbers from an unkown source? That makes no sense to me whatsoever. I can tell you right now If any 1 sam site/operator shot down anywhere near 196 planes it would have been destroyed and everything in the area would have gotten flattened in the process. You watched that show on discovery then you saw how deadly the wild weasels became at their job.

I can just picture these SAM operators firing off salvo's of SAM's then shutting of their radar when weasel's are coming in and then claiming kills so that they dont get shot for turning their radars off.

[spitfiremkv]

Originally posted by Boroda
I need information on American air losses and victories in Vietnam, can anyone give me any links?

Not for propaganda purposes, there is no reliable statistics from Red side as far as I know to compare the data as I tried to do on Korean war.

What I need is probably statistics by year, by plane model, how it was lost (SAM or air combat), and, certainly - non-combat losses statistics too.

Thanks in advance!

can you tell us how many Russian pilots were killed?
or is that still kept a secret in your 'free' country?

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Jackal1
Mmmmmmm...maybe because the first rattle out of the box you disputed them? Think that could be it?
You then go on to say if only Russia would open the records you would have "reliable" information. Maybe that had something to do with.
Sort of comical really. There`s a crackhead that runs around a town not to far from here that I would designate "reliable" before anything that ever has or ever will come from Russian records.

Well, in fact I meant that in case we have statistics and flight records from both sides - we can compare how every encounter is described by both sides and work out some version that is based on facts, not propaganda or traditions. It was really interesting to compare 64th IAK records with American data, it works both ways, both sides were exaggerating their victory numbers. Unfortunately, there were very few (if any) Soviet pilots in Vietnam, and even SAM crews were mostly Vietnamese. So disclosure of exact data is now on Vietnamese comrades.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Boroda
Unfortunately, there were very few (if any) Soviet pilots in Vietnam, and even SAM crews were mostly Vietnamese. So disclosure of exact data is now on Vietnamese comrades.

I have some ocean front property in Arizona for sale. You interested? I`d let it go cheap.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Jackal1
I have some ocean front property in Arizona for sale. You interested? I`d let it go cheap.

Этот Хуйну меня и сбил

I hope that my sentence in Russian above is as confusing for you as your offer was to me. Anyway, how much? Frankly speaking I'll prefer some piece of an ocean beach in Minnesota, cilmate there is more like we have here.

If you have evidence or documents about Soviet pilots fighting in Vietnam - please share them. All I have read about Soviet pilots there is just rumours or some mentally sick people telling fairy-tales, like flying Tu-128 interceptors from DRV against American planes in 1965.

[Elfie]

Boroda, Jackal's comment about selling you ocean front property in Arizona is a pretty common one here in the US.

It's normally used when a person will say something that is unbelievable or said to someone who is being incredibly naive. Arizona is basically one big desert. To someone who is being naive it might be said in the context that 'if you believe that, I have some ocean front property in Arizona I can sell you'.

Thats probably not a real good explanation, maybe someone else can do better.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Elfie
Boroda, Jackal's comment about selling you ocean front property in Arizona is a pretty common one here in the US.

It's normally used when a person will say something that is unbelievable or said to someone who is being incredibly naive. Arizona is basically one big desert. To someone who is being naive it might be said in the context that 'if you believe that, I have some ocean front property in Arizona I can sell you'.

Thats probably not a real good explanation, maybe someone else can do better.

So how about selling me some piece of ocean beach in Minnesota?  

I asked for evidence about Soviet pilots flying combat missions (let's say it this way to avoid misunderstanding) in Vietnam. I don't care, if they were there - they were volunteers fighting an enemy. It can be interesting. I am proud of 64th IAK pilots who saved thousands of people in Korea. I am proud of my Uncle, who has 4 victories in Vietnam as a SAM targeting officer. I simply don't know anything about Soviet fighter pilots who fought in Vietnam. Maybe it's a big lack in my education