Author Topic: Question to Finns (Read 29282 times)

Raven_2 · « **Reply #360 on:** March 15, 2005, 06:51:51 PM »

to Toad

>>The one's that won't admit the NKVD killed the Polish POWs for example.

Maybe I`m a part of NKVD, Toad? Maybe that was I who killed this poles? Maybe I order killing? Sure, maybe some NKVD bastards shot some poles. But why I should treat at as MY fault?

And no, Yeltsin and Putin and Savenkov wasn`t admit Katyn. Yeltsin was on Katyn graves and put flowers on it (that`s why your press write, the he accepted Katyn) and Putin say something to Poland president about polish POWs - that`s why your press write, the he accepted Katyn . Savenkov DIRECTLY DECLINE this.

Raven_2 · « **Reply #361 on:** March 15, 2005, 06:52:39 PM »

to Toad

>>The one's that won't admit the NKVD killed the Polish POWs for example.

Maybe I`m a part of NKVD, Toad? Maybe that was I who killed this poles? Maybe I order killing? Sure, maybe some NKVD bastards shot some poles. But why I should treat at as MY fault?

And no, Yeltsin and Putin and Savenkov wasn`t admit Katyn. Yeltsin was on Katyn graves and put flowers on it (that`s why your press write, the he accepted Katyn) and Putin say something to Poland president about polish POWs - that`s why your press write, the he accepted Katyn . Savenkov DIRECTLY DECLINE this.

Toad · « **Reply #362 on:** March 15, 2005, 07:12:34 PM »

Maybe it's a language barrier or something.

No one accused YOU of shooting the Poles. It was done long ago by some other really brutal Russians on the orders of perhaps the most Brutal Russian leader (yeah, I know.. he's Georgian) of all.

YOU and BORODA however continue to DEFEND THIS ATROCITY.

This act is INDEFENSIBLE. That means THERE IS NO POSSIBLE EXCUSE FOR SHOOTING UNARMED POW's.

Yet YOU and BORODA continue to try to defend this brutal atrocity.

It is foolish, it makes you look stupid, it makes you look just as brutal

Imagine if an American tried to defend the My Lai incident as "justified" or tried to deny that US troops were responsible.

That American would look just as stupid and brutal as you and Boroda do now.

Does that help you understand it?

Nekto · « **Reply #363 on:** March 15, 2005, 09:49:35 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
Maybe it's a language barrier or something.

Excuse me my interruption.. I think it's sertanly the language barrier. As i can see neither Boroda nor Raven are defending this atrocity.

Boroda said it is quite likely that it were Germans who commited the Katyn massacre, and I would agree with him.

You, Toad, just aren't aware about our Russian domestic affairs. Stalin is still the active factor of the Russian post-Soviet domestic politics. There are a lot of his bitter enemies and Gorby, Yeltsen, Yakovlev are among them and it were in their high interest to blackwash him on the road to a new free market paradise. It's a long story.

Stang · « **Reply #364 on:** March 15, 2005, 09:58:11 PM »

What does that have to do with denying the painfully obvious truth?

Btw, I smell a shades account.

Nekto · « **Reply #365 on:** March 15, 2005, 10:13:37 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Stang
What does that have to do with denying the painfully obvious truth?

Who can decide what is obvious truth and what is not?

Quote

Originally posted by Stang Btw, I smell a shades account.

It's about me? I came across the link with your interesting discussion on a Russian forum.

Toad · « **Reply #366 on:** March 15, 2005, 11:15:20 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Nekto

Boroda said it is quite likely that it were Germans who commited the Katyn massacre, and I would agree with him.

See? There's WAY more of them than you would ever think.

***************

Nekto, as I said, I regard this statement by you as you would regard a statement by me saying that American soldiers did not kill Vietnamese civilians in the My Lai incident; it was actually the NVA.

Both statements are equally preposterous.

As for defending it, denying a proven fact is a form of defense.

Raven_2 · « **Reply #367 on:** March 16, 2005, 12:08:42 AM »

to Toad

>>No one accused YOU of shooting the Poles. It was done long ago by some other really brutal Russians on the orders of perhaps the most Brutal Russian leader (yeah, I know.. he's Georgian) of all.

Soviet, Toad. Soviet. Not Russian.

>>YOU and BORODA however continue to DEFEND THIS ATROCITY.

Toad, official investigation of in my country say to me, that there were ~15.000 poles, ~2.000 died. Official investigation. Yes, maybe they lie to me. But for now I treat that as truth. Maybe when all documents goes to Poland, they found that Katyn massacre had a place and NKVD was guilty for that. After that I accept this fact. But for now official position of investigation is that there were no mass killing of poles. If someone (even president) accept this - well, that`s mean nothing for *me*, cause our investigators found nothing. So, I`m not defend any atrocity, there still not enough facts for our justice to declare that this massacre had place.

Not I, but our court deny this. And I prefer to live by the laws of my country and trust to our court.

>>Does that help you understand it?

When our (or Poland) court say to me that this brutality had a place - only then I accept this, but not earlier. It`s a presumption of innocence, Toad. One of the basic principles of justiciary process in all democratic countries.

So, it`s not "my stupidity", but only my truth into the court decision.

Toad · « **Reply #368 on:** March 16, 2005, 12:25:43 AM »

The number, whether you choose to believe it or not is ~20,000+. I have seen as high as 24,000+

About 4500 were found in about 3 different mass graves in Katyn, there is another grave at Smolensk that has been positively identified, there are more graves near Kharkov, more yet in Kalinin and other camps in the Ukraine and Belorussia.

4,421 in the Katyn Forest (Smolensk region)
3,820 in the Starobelsk camp (near Kharkov)
6,311 in the Ostashkovo camp (Kalinin region)
7,305 in other camps and prisons in western Ukraine and western Belorussia

You government has turned over about 1/3 of the documents on the murder of the Poles by the NKVD.

Quote

But last week, the Russian Embassy in Warsaw told Polish prosecutors that Moscow would hand over only 67 out of 183 Katyn files.

Foreign Minister Adam Rotfeld said Poland would not accept Russia’s decision and suggested he felt Moscow has something to hide.

Savenkov confirmed that Russia was withholding 116 files from Polish investigators on grounds of secrecy.

Clearly Russia is still hiding something. Secrecy necessary about murders of POW's almost 70 years ago?

Come now... it's obvious they are hiding something.

Eventually, those files will be opened. And you will look just as foolish denying it then.

Siaf__csf · « **Reply #369 on:** March 16, 2005, 12:29:11 AM »

Raven2 you must already know that both your media and the political system are the most corrupt on this planet. How can you trust anything that comes from there? Your country has a decades long tradition of altering history to please the people and the leaders. During soviet years nobody ever dared to report anything negative because they were sent to the camps. That means that no information from that time is reliable from soviet sources.

Raven_2 · « **Reply #370 on:** March 16, 2005, 01:15:34 AM »

to Toad

>>Come now... it's obvious they are hiding something.

Yes, maybe my government hiding something, I don`t deny this. But for now it`s only guesses. I belive in justice. When fact of Katyn killings would be accepted by court, I accept it as well.

I deny this not because I don`t belive in this. I see no prove of it for now. When this would be proved - I accept it. If Poland court do not find confirmation of mass killing in Katyn - I deny it. I`m not a blind fanatic of communistic regime, but I don`t belive in guesses, only in proved facts.

to Sciaf

>>Raven2 you must already know that both your media and the political system are the most corrupt on this planet

The most corrupt media in are in democratic Italy. I suppose :-) Berluskoni owns all of them.

Most of our TV and newspapers are independent, some of them even supported from American/Europe sources. There *is* direct critic of our government on TV. There *is* defenders of Hodorkovsiy on TV/newspapers. And there is a lot of internet news sources. So, to say straight, your words are just paranoidal BS, no offence. Russia is not USSR. Russia is democratic country. Yes, russian democracy is less then ten years old, so there is some troubles. But "total corruption on TV" it`s a BS.

And again, Sciaf, I live there and you don`t. I`m nor a fanatic, nor a total sceptic. So I see know how our TV/politics really looks.

>>How can you trust anything that comes from there?

Bah. And USA/Europe hate my country till 1950, so how can I trust anything that comes from *there*? :-) BTW, Savenkov gives interview to russian journalists, and Toad citates were from "(mis)translations" of russian newspapers. (Lie)^2.

>>That means that no information from that time is reliable from soviet sources.

Sure, but there is no more "soviet sources". You still lives in 1960s, Sciaf.

>>During soviet years nobody ever dared to report anything negative because they were sent to the camps.

Even read any USSR newspaper till 1960? :-) BTW, did you know that more than three USA cinema companies deny to show "Farenheit 9/11" cause of political reasons?

Nekto · « **Reply #371 on:** March 16, 2005, 01:22:51 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
As for defending it, denying a proven fact is a form of defense.

The problem is that it's not a proven fact. How do you think was it proven? Was there a trial or so?

As I see there was Soviet commission of 1944 that blamed Germans. And now we have Post-Soviet Russian commission blames Soviets. Ok. Who is right? Is it up to each of us to decide it on our own?

I have no such a strong sense of loyalty to our government as Raven has and I completely agree with Siaf__csf that our present-day media and political system are among the most corrupt on the planet. That's why I query very much the result of Russian official investigation that casts the blame on Soviets

Raven_2 · « **Reply #372 on:** March 16, 2005, 01:56:08 AM »

to Nekto

>>I have no such a strong sense of loyalty to our government as Raven

I`m loyal not to government but to the peolpe. And Toad blame not USSR/Russian government, but brutality of russian/soviet people, that`s why I oppose him.

Staga · « **Reply #373 on:** March 16, 2005, 02:00:09 AM »

So it was government which made those attrocities and not people... OK; guess this is clear now.

Raven_2 · « **Reply #374 on:** March 16, 2005, 02:22:07 AM »

to Staga

>>So it was government which made those attrocities and not people... OK; guess this is clear now.

Still this is not proven fact. For now it`s just speculations. Things would be clear only after Poland investigation. And only after that, *maybe*, there would be reason to blame NKVD for Katyn.