Question to Finns

[Raven_2]

Toad, I`m sure you still would deny, that your country is most agressive country in the world till birth. Even after this list. But, maybe others, not americans, agreed with that after reading it :-)

1. 1824 Puerto Rico (then Spanish territory). Commodore David Porter and a landing party attacks the town of Fajardo which had harbored "pirates" and insulted U.S. naval officers. Porter lands with 200 men in November and forces an apology.

2. 1835-1836 Mexico. So-called Texan War of Independence. Huge pieces of Mexico north of the Rio Grande are seized by invading U.S. ranchers and slave-owners. Texas temporarily becomes the "Lone Star Republic" under Sam Houston. U.S. General Gaines occupies Nocagdoches, Texas during the war under guise of an imagined threat of "Indian outbreak."

3. 1842 Mexican California. Commodore T.A.C. Jones, in command of a squadron cruising off California, occupies Monterey, California on October 19, believing that war had come. He discovers he is premature and withdraws. A similar incident occurs a week later at San Diego.

4. 1844 Mexico. President Tyler deploys U.S. forces to protect Texas from Mexico pending Senate approval of a treaty of annexation.

5. 1846-8 Mexico. United States declares war with Mexico. President Polk orders occupation of disputed territory between Nueces and Rio Grande to provoke the war. California, New Mexico, Colorado, Nevada, Texas and parts of other states are secured for the U.S. Mexico City itself (the Halls of Montezuma) is secured through bitter fighting.

6. 1853 Nicaragua. March 11 through 13. Troops land "to protect American interests during a revolution."

7. 1854 Nicaragua. July 9 through 15. San Juan del Norte (Greytown) is destroyed to avenge an insult to the U.S. Minister to Nicaragua.

8. 1856 Republic of New Grenada (now Panama). Troops land to protect U.S. interests during an insurrection. September 19-22.

9. 1857 Nicaragua. U.S. forces land twice.

10. 1859 Mexico.200 soldiers cross the Rio Grande in pursuit of the Mexican resistance leader Juan Cortina.

11. 1860 Colombia (the Bay of Panama). Troops land to protect U.S. interests during a revolution. September 27 to October 8.

12. 1865 Panama. March 9 and 10. Troops land to protect U.S. interests during a revolution.

13. 1866 Mexico. To protect U.S. lives, General Sedgwick and 100 men obtain the surrender of Matamoros; Sedgwick is ordered to withdraw after success, and his action is "officially repudiated by the President."

14. 1868 Colombia. April 7. Troops land "to protect passengers and treasure" in transit during political disturbances following the death of the President of Colombia.

15. 1873 Colombia (Bay of Panama). May 7 through 22, September 23 to October 9. Troops land to protect U.S. interests during hostilities over the possessions of the government of the State of Panama.

16. 1876

Mexico. May 18. Troops enter Mexico to "police the town of Matamoros temporarily while it was without other government."

17. 1885 Panama (Colón). January 18 and 19. To guard the valuables in transit over the Panama Railway and the safes and vaults of the company during revolutionary activity. In the months of March, April and May in the cities of Colón and Panama to "reestablish freedom of transit" during political disturbances.

18. 1888 Haiti. December 20—"to persuade the Haitian government to give up an American steamer which had been seized on the charge of breach of blockade."

1890 The United States organizes the "Pan-American Union" to hasten its plans to transform Latin America into its own "backyard."

19. 1891 Haiti. "To protect American lives and property on Navassa Island when Negro laborers got out of control."

20. 1894 Nicaragua. July 6 to August 7. To protect U.S. interests in Bluefield following a change of power.

21. 1896 Nicaragua. May 2-4. To protect U.S. interests in Corinto during political unrest.

22. 1898 Nicaragua. February 7-8. To protect San Juan del Sur.

23. 1898 Spanish-American War declared. United States seizes Cuba and Puerto Rico from Spain (not to mention colonies like the Philippines in other regions of the world.)

24. 1898-1902 Cuba. U.S. troops occupy Cuba, suppressing the anti-Spanish nationalist forces they supposedly went in to support and establishing colonial rule.

25. 1899 Nicaragua. To protect U.S. interests at San Juan del Norte, February 22 to March 5, and at Bluefields a few weeks later in connection with internal political disturbances—in this case, a military coup.

26. 1901 Puerto Rico. U.S. troops occupy the island after the defeat of the Spanish colonialists.

27. 1901 Colombia (the State of Panama). November 20 to December 4. To protect U.S. property on the Isthmus and to keep transit lines open during serious political disturbances.

28. 1902 Colombia. April 16-23. To protect U.S. lives and property at Bocas del Toro during civil war.

29. 1902 Colombia (State of Panama). September 17 to November 18. Troops land to place armed guards on all trains crossing the Isthmus and to keep the railroad line open.

30. 1903 Honduras. March 23-31. To protect the U.S. consulate and the steamship wharf at Puerto Cortés during a period of political disturbances.

31. 1903 Dominican Republic. March 30 to April 21. To protect U.S. interests in the city of Santo Domingo.

32. 1903 Panama. A U.S.-instigated coup d'état leads to a "declaration of independence" from Colombia. Hardly by coincidence, the U.S. cruiser Nashville, sent days earlier from California, arrives to back up the "rebellion." Source of dispute is Colombia's terms for an Isthmus Canal. U.S. troops occupy Panama for 11 years with only brief interruptions.

33. 1904 Dominican Republic. January 2 to February 11. Troops land in Puerto Plata, Susua, and Santo Domingo.

34. 1904 Panama. November 17-24. Troops land at Ancon.

35. 1905 Honduras. Troops land at Puerto Cortés.

36. 1906-09 Cuba. Troops land "to restore order, protect foreigners and establish a stable government."

37. 1907 Honduras. March through June. Troops land to protect U.S. interests during a war between Honduras and Nicaragua; troops are stationed in Trujillo, Ceiba, Puerto Cortés, San Pedro, Laguna and Choloma.

38. 1910 Nicaragua. February 22. Troops land at Corinto to get information on the political conditions prevailing in the country following a civil war. And from May 19 to September 4 to protect U.S. interests at Bluefields.

39. 1911 Honduras. January 26, lasting for several weeks. Troops land to protect U.S. interests during political disturbances. President Taft meanwhile forces both Nicaragua and Honduras to hand over rights to custom duties and railway and steamship transportation between the two oceans.

40. 1912 Honduras. A small force lands to prevent seizure by the government of a U.S.-owned railroad at Puerto Cortés.

41. 1912 Panama. U.S. troops supervise the elections being held outside the Canal Zone.

42. 1912 Cuba. June 5 to August 5. Troops land to protect U.S. interests and occupy the province of Oriente and the city of Havana.

43. 1912-25 Nicaragua. Landing of 2,700 Marines to protect U.S. interests during "an attempted revolution." U.S. troops stay for 13 years as a tripwire—or in the words of the U.S. government, "as a promoter of peace and government stability." Less than two years after the troops left, they returned.

44. 1912 Mexico. September 5-7. Marines land at Claris Estero to aid in evacuating U.S. citizens and others from Yaqui Valley, made dangerous because of "civil strife."

1914 Panama Canal is completed.

45. 1914 Haiti. January 29 to February 9, February 20-21, and again on October 19. U.S. troops land three times "to protect American nationals in a time of dangerous unrest." Soon they return, to stay decades.

46. 1914 Dominican Republic. June and July. "During a revolution movement, the United States naval forces by gunfire stopped the bombardment of Puerto Plata and by threat of force maintained Santo Domingo City as a neutral zone."

47. 1914-1917 Mexico. The United States wages a campaign of undeclared hostilities aimed at the growing Mexican Revolution. Twice (in 1914 and 1916) major incursions occur. Veracruz is seized. And General Pershing conducts invasions of northern Mexico, hunting the revolutionary Pancho Villa.

48. 1915-34 Haiti. A 19-year occupation starts with the landing of U.S. troops to end "a period of chronic and threatened insurrection."

49. 1916-24 Dominican Republic. Eight-year occupation, using the justification of "chronic and threatened insurrection."

50. 1917 Virgin Islands. The United States invades.

[Raven_2]

Second part.

51. 1917-33 Cuba. A 16-year occupation of Cuba to protect U.S. interests during times of "unsettled conditions."

52. 1918-1919 Mexico. After the withdrawal of the Pershing expedition, U.S. troops enter Mexico at least three times in 1918 and six times in 1919 "in pursuit of bandits," a name commonly given to revolutionary Mexican forces. In August 1918, U.S. troops engage Mexican forces at Nogales.

53. 1918-20 Panama. U.S. troops land "for police duty according to treaty stipulations" at Chiriqui—to maintain control during elections.

54. 1919 Honduras. September 8-12. "A landing force was sent ashore to maintain order in a neutral zone during an attempted revolution." Occupation of Honduras's major ports.

55. 1920 Guatemala. April 9-27. To protect U.S. interests, including the cable station, during fighting between Unionists and the government of Guatemala.

56. 1921 Panama and Costa Rica. U.S. naval squadrons appear on both sides of the Isthmus to place pressure on both of the countries involved in a boundary dispute.

57. 1924 Honduras. February 28 to March 31, September 10 to 15. U.S. troops land "to protect American lives and interests" during elections.

58. 1925 Honduras. April 19-21. Troops land "to protect foreigners at La Ceiba during a political upheaval."

59. 1925 Panama. October 12-23. "Strikes and rent riots led to the landing of about 600 American troops to keep order and protect American interests."

60. 1926-1933 Nicaragua. An upheaval of revolutionary activity leads to the landing of 5,000 Marines "to protect the interests of the United States." The National Guard of the Somoza family is established to rule into the future. U.S. forces engage in major operations against the revolutionary Sandino in 1928. After their withdrawal, Sandino is deceived and finally assassinated by the U.S.-trained Somoza forces in 1934. The consolidated military dictatorship rules for 45 years.

61. 1932 El Salvador. U.S. warships stand off the coast during El Salvador's matanza (massacre). In the first weeks, Salvadoran army and paramilitary forces kill over 30,000 people. By the time it's over, 4 percent of the population is murdered. The suppression of this uprising leads to a military dictatorship that rules almost unchallenged for over 30 years.

1933 Roosevelt announces ``Good Neighbor'' policy. In the following period, U.S. investment in Latin America as a whole rises rapidly, reaching $1.54 billion and making up 35 percent of total U.S. foreign investment in 1936.

62. 1933 Cuba. U.S. naval forces organize a "demonstration" of 30 warships off the Cuban coast during a challenge to the power of President Gerardo Machado.

63. 1937. Puerto Rico. Major massacre of Puerto Ricans demonstrating against U.S. authorities.

64. 1940 Throughout the Caribbean. As part of the World War 2 U.S.-British imperialist alliance, U.S. troops are sent to guard air and naval bases formerly controlled by Britain on Bermuda, St. Lucia, Bahamas, Jamaica, Antigua, Trinidad and British Guiana.

1948

Organization of American States is founded.

65. 1954 Guatemala. The CIA overthrow of a government daring to expropriate some land owned by the United Fruit Company requires the use of invading force. Right-wing exiles are forged into an army for invading Guatemala, while the ground forces are backed up with aerial bombing of Guatemala City. The bombing triggers an internal coup, based in U.S.-trained military forces and the church.

1959 Cuba. Revolution against U.S.-backed dicator Batista, Castro comes to power.

1960 Central American Common Market is established.

66. 1961 Cuba. Abortive CIA-backed Bay of Pigs invasion. This is followed by uncounted landings on the island by CIA forces to sabotage, conduct bacteriological warfare, assassinate, contact internal operatives, and carry out other armed and hostile acts.

1961 Alliance for Progress is signed.

67. 1962 Cuba. The Cuban Missile Crisis, centered around a U.S. naval blockade to force the withdrawal of Soviet medium-range missiles. Backed by the threat of all-out invasion.

68. 1965 Dominican Republic. 20,000 U.S. Marines invade in May (only a month after the first landing of regular U.S. troops in South Vietnam) to suppress a revolutionary uprising. An estimated 2,500 civilians killed.

69. 1966 Guatemala. The first death squads appear, closely linked with the United States. Between 1966 and 1976 they are responsible for at least 20,000 deaths. (This is standard operating procedure throughout the region.)

70. 1979 Nicaragua. Following the overthrow of Somoza, regroupment starts of what is to become a U.S.-led and trained army of counterrevolutionaries (Contras) based in neighboring Honduras and Costa Rica.

1979 Caribbean Joint Task Force is set up in Florida.

71. 1981 El Salvador. Along with increased U.S. military assistance to the puppet government fighting revolutionary forces, U.S. military "advisers" start arriving in increasing numbers.

72. 1980-84 Honduras is turned into a U.S. military base.

73. 1983 Grenada. U.S. invasion four years after the New Jewel Movement overthrew the U.S-backed Gairy government.

74. 1987 Nicaragua. May. The U.S. military conducts a massive ``training exercise'' near Nicaragua. Code-named Solid Shield, the exercise involves 50,000 troops.

75. 1988 Honduras. March. Using the excuse that Nicaraguan troops ``crossed the border'' in pursuit of the Contras, the U.S. sends 3,500 troops to Honduras.

76. 1989 Panama. December. Bush sends 20,000 troops to invade this country using the excuse that Manuel Noriega is a major "international drug lord." The real reason: the U.S. wants to assure control over this country where SOUTHCOM, headquarters for all U.S. military operations south of Mexico, is located.

77. 1994 Haiti. September. Clinton sends 20,000 troops to invade and occupy this country, claiming to "restore democracy." Real reason is to restore tight U.S. control over the country, its military and police.

78. 2000. In January, the Clinton administration announces a $1.6 billion plan to build up the Colombian government and paramilitary forces for a two-year invasion into southern Colombia.

79. 2000. On May 4, U.S. federal agents carry out an operation to remove hundreds of protesters camped out on the U.S. Naval base on the Puerto Rican island of Vieques. The "People's Zone" encampments are part of a movement demanding the U.S. stop using Vieques as a bombing range.

[Toad]

Great list!

Tell me more about this US Invasion:

1933 Roosevelt announces ``Good Neighbor'' policy. In the following period, U.S. investment in Latin America as a whole rises rapidly, reaching $1.54 billion and making up 35 percent of total U.S. foreign investment in 1936.

Although a lot of your cut and paste about the "Evil Amreekans" is as laughable as that, there are also some that shamed our country.

OTOH, there are also some that needed doing and were the right thing to do. Not that you'd admit that though.

The difference is that we KNOW we've made mistakes and we admit it. There are things my country has done, particularly prior to WW1, that I am not proud of. However, as I said, I admit those.

Unlike YOU guys, who can admit to no mistakes, despite overwhelming evidence of your brutality.

It's why your only possibly reply is always... "Well... look at what YOU did."

Here's an example:  The Iran Air/Vincennes incident was a big screwup by the Vincennes. Vincennes did not have a visual; they had only radar tracking leading from a dual use civilian/military field. It was a mistake and a terrible one. It was a major screwup by our Navy. At least we paid compensation to the families of the dead.

Now take either one of the two KAL airliners your pilots shot down AFTER HAVING VISUALLY IDENTIFIED THE AIRCRAFT AS CIVILIAN AIRLINERS. You guys still defend that as the "right" thing to do and your country NEVER paid compensation.

I don't expect you and the other Stalinists to see the difference but I assure everyone else in the world can see it clearly.

[Raven_2]

to Toad

>>Or were you making the largest nukes in the world as flashbulbs for your cameras?

Only to bust our fundamental science, Toad ;-)

>>Well, looks like your TV is as full of krap as you and the rest of the Stainists here are.

Sure. If it anti-american then it full of krap :-) As always. BTW, according to your words, France, Deutsch and all arabic countires TV are full of krap, cause in case of Iraq they anti-american. Germans are stalinists also?

>>Because BOTH countries want our troops there.

The curfew was imposed one month after the rape of a 12-year-old Okinawa schoolgirl by three U.S. servicemen in September 1995. In May, an insurance saleswoman in her 20s was also hit on the face with a hammer to death. In October, futhermore, a F15 fighter of Kadena Air Base fell in the 120 times crash since 1972. Burdened with Bases, all Okinawa people was filled with rage at the crimes, and 85,000 residents gathered all-island rally against U.S. bases and crimes due to the military on October21, 1995.

Sure, they want. Switch off your TV, Toad, learn any foreign language and read about whole world REALLY think about USA...

>>Horse****. You OCCUPIED them during WW2 and gave them no choice...

Occupied Afganistan during WW2? Toad, you must be overheated...

>>You could choose between The Party and.. The Party. Always The Party candidate for election.

Bah. You think that The Party (as you call it) was monolite thing?

>>How much did the USSR pay the countries it stole land from?

Stole is stole. Compensated or not. Sure, USSR invide CZ and Hungary. Does it make Mexica invasion better?

[Raven_2]

to Toad

>>Unlike YOU guys, who can admit to no mistakes, despite overwhelming evidence of your brutality.

The only thing we don`t admit is Katyn.

And the only reason that we didn`t admit Katyn is because there is still no juridical decission about murders (and that is only way it can be officialy proved). I repeat again: if my or poles court said to me, that Katyn is on the NKVD murders list, then I admit it. Thats all.

>>It's why your only possibly reply is always... "Well... look at what YOU did."

The only reason for that list is your repetedly saings with sense "America is always good, USSR is always bad" under it. Both of this countries had a HUGE crime list. And, maybe, for America it a way more :-)

[Toad]

Originally posted by Raven_2
BTW, according to your words, France, Deutsch and all arabic countires TV are full of krap, cause in case of Iraq they anti-american. Germans are stalinists also?

[/b]

Nope. Just you "we didn't murder the Poles at Katyn" Stalinists are full of krap.

I've been to Okinawa, have you? No, I didn't think you had. You do know that Okinawa is part of Japan, right? And our treaty is with Japan? So how come Japan didn't ask us to leave?

Occupied Afganistan during WW2? Toad, you must be overheated...

No, you occupied Eastern Europe during WW2. You occupied Afghanistan unsuccessfully in 1979 and left in 1989. Did you forget already? Those Afghans sure loved you guys, eh?

I wonder why we didn't have to fight very much there compared to you?

Stole is stole. Compensated or not.

Must be a Russian thing. So if you sign a contract for some land in Russia and pay what the contract says then you stole it?

Because that's the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo... a contract that had the specified payment made.

[Raven_2]

Toad, about parties.

You don`t understand. Communism is a form of democracy. But it works in other way. Communism is direct democracy. There were no elected candidates that represents people. People rule directly, throught local labour organizations. For example, my parents flat was given to them by fabric they worked, I goes into school, builded on fabric money, all teachers were payed from fabric money also and so on. This called "shefstvo", something like "patronage". Fabrics, ruled by labour unions ("profsoyuz"), built all needed infrastructure for their workers - schools, hospitals, houses, stadiums and so on.

Elections? Why? People rule by themself. Only thing, that was ruled by government is foreign poltitics and main vectors of industrial development. That was The Party exist for. And Party was opened for ALL people. Anyone can join it - and anyone can get up to the Kreml. Gorbachev was combine driver. Yeltsin was builder. There were no "elite".

Party was opened for anyone for join. So, party represent opinion of anyone. There were discussions, there were wings.

"One party = totalitarism" only in western liberal democracy model. And we have different model. And it work for us.

[Nekto]

Originally posted by Toad Now take either one of the two KAL airliners your pilots shot down AFTER HAVING VISUALLY IDENTIFIED THE AIRCRAFT AS CIVILIAN AIRLINERS.  

That's a lie as usual. In 1983 KAL was shot down at night and our pilot didn't know it was civilian. http://shura.kulichki.net/interest/kal007/ (In Russian)

[Raven_2]

to Toad

>>Must be a Russian thing. So if you sign a contract for some land in Russia and pay what the contract says then you stole it?

You point the gun onto someone head, take his Rolex watch for 20.000$ and then force him to sign "contract" by which he sells to you his watch for 20$ - you call this "legal agreement"?

>>So how come Japan didn't ask us to leave?

Maybe this would a news for you, but japans thinks that Okinawa IS part of Japan.

And, in any case, you said, that countries you occupy don`t worry about your occupation. I showed you only one small sample that you lie. Okinawa WANT USA occupation end.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Raven_2
You point the gun onto someone head, take his Rolex watch for 20.000$ and then force him to sign "contract" by which he sells to you his watch for 20$ - you call this "legal agreement"?

[/b]

Check around and see what land was going for at the time. It was a fair deal, particularly as the land was essentially unpopulated and not under Mexican control anyway. It wasn't under anyone's control.

Note again I didn't say the Mexican-American war was justified. It wasn't. OTOH, there was some compensation. Unlike say... occupying Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, the German Democratic Republic (East Germany), Hungary, Poland, and Romania for about 50 years or so.

Maybe this would a news for you, but japans thinks that Okinawa IS part of Japan.

[/b]

Exactly. Which makes Japan the government with which the US deals, not the head of the Okinawa Prefecture.

The goverment of Japan did not ask us to leave over a crime committed by one of our servicement.

 I showed you only one small sample that you lie. Okinawa WANT USA occupation end.Okinawa WANT USA occupation end.

So you don't realize that Okinawa is a prefecture of Japan? You do realize that Okinawa is not an independent country?

[genozaur]

Originally posted by bikekil
"#) I thought it's obvious from my appreciation of the wise decision of Polish government (real GOVERNMENT of Poland on Polish territories before 17.IX.1939)) and the direct order of the Polish Commander-in-Chief (before Sikorski) :
NOT TO DECLARE WAR ON THE SOVIET UNION,
but limit the armed conflict between the USSR and Poland to the BORDER CONFLICT using only the Polish border guard troops - that's what I also would have done if I were trained in the art of diplomacy.
Your brave grandfather who fought (in the Polish Army, I guess ?) against the Soviet Red Army did it in violation of the direct order of the Polish Commander-in-Chief."

and you still call it a border conflict? sorry, Red Army invader my country and took a great share of the land. Polish Army (not only a border guard) fought with them (as my grandpa did and i'm very proud of him). It's obvious that as a soldier he was following his orders. This point you made insulting even my sense of humor... so i don't see any point in continuing the thread (on my side anyway) about Soviet invasion on 17.IX.1939 if it was a border conflict for you Live with your dreams

"#) There were NO POLISH GOVERNMENT after 17.IX.1939 because Romania agreed to accept the presence on her territory of only private Polish citizens but NOT THE POLISH GOVERNMENT (!), and the members of the Polish government agreed to their status of private Polish citizens. Later on the members of the FORMER POLISH GOVERNMENT assembled in London and PROCLAIMED THEMSELVES ' POLISH GOVERNMENT IN EXILE' (a diplomatic term denoting the status of the former government which is still claiming to be a legitimate governing body). So, there were NO POLISH GOVERNMENT but there was the POLISH GOVERNMENT IN EXILE."

happened that this goverment that according to your claim was not a Polish goverment (or at least had no right to be) was respected by ALL or the Allier countries (including Soviets) and also this goverment were commanding 4th biggest military power at the later stage of the WW2 (after Soviets, Americans, and GB). Sorry, but whatever you will say, those were not a bunch of guys from nowhere who just sit their bottoms in London

"#) To the so-called "Ribbentrop - Molotov pact" there were made in September and October of 1939 important changes by Hitler and Stalin, so
that instead of "half of our [Polish] lands" (as you said) the Soviet Union received only the internationally accepted ('Lord Curson line') territories of Western Belorussia and Western Ukraine (Belorussia and Ukraine were the constituent republics of the USSR).
Now you can address your claims to the newly independent republics of Belorussia and Ukraine. "

See, i have no claims to this lands, butr please quite the point where i said i have nay claims to it? Still can't find it? that's what i thought. Belorussia and Ukraine have his lands and i'm very happy about it. I refered to the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact couintering your funny theory about border conflict Face it, Soviets attacked Poland on 17.IX.1939 (cowardly, without declaring a war) and Sovets wanted to grab some lands who actually were a Polish lands. Of course, the border was never agreed between Poles and Soviets, but you know what? Now it's the same between Poland and Germany, because after WW2 Stalin forced a new borders for our country and "Allies" accepted... do you see any reason for us to attack germans or opposite? Please say so, so i could laugh some more

#) My congratulations, you are the first Polak that I know who admits Polish crimes against Soviet POWs.

#) About heroic Pilsudski.
One of my colleagues, a Polak, called Pilsudski

"Polish Hitler". [/b]

A powewr of democracy can do a miracles huh? I'm not the only one who knows about crimes of Pilsudski (there were more POW's killed by him then by the Soviets in Katyn (but if you add the Syberia ). I'm far from calling him a Hitler, but he surely is responsible for a lot of human beings... right after Hitler and Stalin... and probably many more. Anyway... power of democracy. freedom of speech - know what it is?

"#) About Ukrainian crimes against Polish people..."
From what i know both sides appologised for his crimes and that's the good start... hopefully. [/B]

Bik, the fulfledged Polish government decided NOT TO DECLARE WAR ON THE USSR because of the Soviet declaration about [quote from the official declaration of the Soviet government] "Liberation Expedition of the Red Army into the western Ukraine and western Belorussia".
In correspondence with this decision of the Polish government, the Commander-in-Chief of the Polish Army Ryzd-Smigly made a direct order not to fight the Red Army. This order specially stated that only the Polish border guard troops should engage the attacking Red Army units.
On September 17,1939 the USSR embassy in Warsaw was visited by the representatives of the Polish general Rummel, the commander of the Warsaw defence. They informed the Soviet side that according to the order by the Polish Commander-in-Chief they are not fighting the Red Army.
At 9 A.M. on September 18,1939 Polish colonel Ya. Okulich-Kozarin, garrison commander in Vilno (now Vilnius, capital of Lithuania) issued the following order

: "We are not in the state of war with the Bolsheviks, the [Polish Army] units on [my] additional order will leave Vilno and cross the Lithuanian border; the non-combat units may begin leaving the city,  the combat units stay on their positions but can not fire without the order."[end of quote] On the same day at about 20:00 after the battle against the Red Army tanks colonel Okulich-Kozarin gave the order to withdraw the Polish Army units from the city and sent subcolonel T. Podvysotsky to inform the Soviet command that the Polish side does not want to fight the Red Army and to demand also the withdrawal of the Red army troops from the city. After colonel Okulich-Kozarin left Vilno, subcolonel Podvysotsky returned to the city at about 21:00 and decided to defend it, issueing at about 21:45 an order stopping the withdrawal of the Polish units. In the fight against attacking Red Army tanks took part volunteer units consisting of Polish Gimnasium students. When subcolonel Podvysotsky saw that the greater part of the regular Polish troops and headquarters had already left the city, he could do nothing but decide at about 22:30 to abandon the city and withdraw towards the Lithuanian border. In the battle for Vilno the units of the 11th Soviet army lost 13 men KIA, 24 WIA; five tanks and four armoured vehicles. The Red Army near Vilno and in the city took about ten thousand Polish POWs.
Too many words, but this was pretty much a typical example of the situation in Poland
after 17.X.1939. So, Bik, the President of Poland and his Commander-in-Chief were not traitors, as some Polaks still think, they were just much wiser than Sikorsky and they DID NOT DECLARE WAR ON THE USSR but limited (at least at official diplomatic level) the whole situation to a BORDER CONFLICT. And Sikorsky who intrigued himself first into Ryzd-Smigly's position and then was catapulted into the chair of the head of the POLISH GOVERNMENT IN EXILE was a fool declaring war on the USSR. You are right about the fact that with this GOVERNMENT IN EXILE the Soviet Union had diplomatic relations. My mistake: Polish minister Bek declined private status for his government.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Raven_2
You don`t understand. Communism is a form of democracy. But it works in other way. Communism is direct democracy. . ....

Elections? Why? People rule by themself. ... There were no "elite".
 

It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything.--Joseph Stalin

Sounds kind of elitist to me.

[Raven_2]

to Toad

>>The goverment of Japan did not ask us to leave over a crime committed by one of our servicement.

Three serviceman. At once. With 12 years old girl.

>>So you don't realize that Okinawa is a prefecture of Japan? You do realize that Okinawa is not an independent country?

:-) Toad, I live very close to Japan. Vladivostok. I know that Okinawa IS part of Japan. Okinawa people want for USA to leave their land. There are lot of followers in other parts of Japan. When I said, that Japan don`t want your bases on their territory, I mean that japan people don`t want that. It`s the way how communism works. I`m get used to it.  People want, government do.

So, I called you words a lie. At least, for me. Cause for me country == people. And for you country == government.

Well, if democracy == government supreme on people, then I have nothing more to say... Sure, in THIS way Japan WANT your bases. And Iraq too, cause 1% of people, polticians, want that.

Will of corrupted polticians == will of all people... Bah...

[genozaur]

Originally posted by Toad

Note again I didn't say the Mexican-American war was justified. It wasn't. OTOH, there was some compensation. Unlike say... occupying Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, the German Democratic Republic (East Germany), Hungary, Poland, and Romania for about 50 years or so. [END OF QUOTE]

Toad, it is not a trap, but you are just driving yourself into the corner because the USA is still occupying the Germany and Japan for about 60 years or so.

[Raven_2]

to Holden

>>Sounds kind of elitist to me.

From what source are this citation? And there were no communism at Stalyn time, but ... "voenniy communism" at this time. Don`t know how to translate without shattering sense.

BTW, people, who count voices decide everything in any democratic country too :-) There a lot of rumors about voiting machines in USA, you know :-)