Question to Finns

[Toad]

Originally posted by Nekto
That's a lie as usual. In 1983 KAL was shot down at night and our pilot didn't know it was civilian. http://shura.kulichki.net/interest/kal007/ (In Russian)

There are two versions of Osipovich's intercept.

Assume you are correct; assume he did not identify it as civilian.

Would it have made any difference at all? Remember,  in 1978 KAL 902, another airliner that had been clearly identified as civilian was shot down by a pilot ordered to destroy the aircraft.

So what difference? The history of your country is one of shooting down EVERYTHING inside your airspace regardless of civilian or not. You also shoot down many OUTSIDE your airspace. Would you like to discuss the Argentine freighter one of your pilots rammed? There's plenty of incidents that show the Soviets shot down civilians and knew or should have know it.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Raven_2
... there were no communism at Stalyn time, but ... "voenniy communism" at this time.

Is that kind of like saying, "There are no horses in that field, only brown horses are in that field"?

Just search Stalin Quotes, you will find numerous sources.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Raven_2
Three serviceman. At once. With 12 years old girl.

[/b]

Yep. It was a crime.

Three U.S. servicemen were convicted Thursday in the kidnapping and rape of a 12-year-old Okinawa girl and sentenced to up to seven years in a Japanese prison.

Seven years is more than they would have got for doing that in the US.

So what's your point? It was a crime. It was prosecuted and they are in jail. What other result would there be?

So, I called you words a lie. At least, for me. Cause for me country == people. And for you country == government.

[/b]

The difference is the freely elected government of those people. The Germans and Japanese elect their own governments from multiple parties that represent the left, middle and right of the political spectrum.

Those freely elected governments want us to stay.

Now contrast that with the "will of the people" in Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and the others. They couldn't wait for you to leave but they had no freely elected government that could ask you to leave.

See the difference? No? Think about the Berlin Wall coming down then. That should help you.

[Toad]

Originally posted by genozaur
Toad, it is not a trap, but you are just driving yourself into the corner because the USA is still occupying the Germany and Japan for about 60 years or so.
 

Here, let me help you grow.

I'll say: The Mexican-American war was not justified, it was wrong. The US should not have entered into the war between the Texans and the Mexicans.

Now YOU say: The Soviet invasion of Poland was not justified, it was wrong. The USSR should not have attacked Poland when it was trying to fight off the Nazi invaders.

See? It's not that hard to be honest.

As for "occupying Germany and Japan", let me repeat this for you.

The difference is the freely elected government of those people. The Germans and Japanese elect their own governments from multiple parties that represent the left, middle and right of the political spectrum.

Those freely elected governments want us to stay.

Now contrast that with the "will of the people" in Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and the others. They couldn't wait for you to leave but they had no freely elected government that could ask you to leave.

See the difference? No? Think about the Berlin Wall coming down then. That should help you. First Poland, then Hungary, and then East Germany rejected USSR control. This time, Gorbachev didn't send in the tanks. Without the Russian tanks, what happened to the Communist governments of those states?

There are no American tanks mandating who rules in Japan or Germany. If you try to make that case you show yourself to be even more of a fool. Go ahead, tell the German and Japanese posters here that their governments are mandated by the US military. They'll laugh even harder at you.

[genozaur]

Originally posted by Raven

65. 1954 Guatemala. The CIA overthrow of a government daring to expropriate some land owned by the United Fruit Company requires the use of invading force. Right-wing exiles are forged into an army for invading Guatemala, while the ground forces are backed up with aerial bombing of Guatemala City. The bombing triggers an internal coup, based in U.S.-trained military forces and the church. [end of quote]

I have to add to the last sentence of the above :

"Two weeks later [after June 2nd, 1954], the CIA quite literally dropped the bomb. Mercenary pilots flew B26 raids over Guatemala,..." "The CIA planes went back into action, bombing and strafing the major cities, including the capital, Guatemala City. ..." [END OF QUOTE]  \See pp. 28-29 in the book 'CIA.Secrets of "The Company"' by Mick Farren published in New York by Barnes & Noble Books, 2004 (ISBN 0-7607-59634).\

[genozaur]

Originally posted by Raven_2
to Holden

>>Sounds kind of elitist to me.

From what source are this citation? And there were no communism at Stalyn time, but ... "voenniy communism" at this time. Don`t know how to translate without shattering sense.

BTW, people, who count voices decide everything in any democratic country too :-) There a lot of rumors about voiting machines in USA, you know :-)

The most adequate translation of the term "voiyenniy kommunizm" is "war-time communism". It is the policy aimed at satisfying of only the most basic needs of the people during the war time or its disastrous aftermath and foreign blockade.

[Raven_2]

to Harold

>>Is that kind of like saying, "There are no horses in that field, only brown horses are in that field"?

:-) "Voenniy communism" is not "communism" at all. It something like "war-time-democracy". Every country have censourship during a war, every country violates human rights (at least, at minor) during war and so on. War time "communism" wasn`t a communism.

to Toad

>>So what's your point? It was a crime. It was prosecuted and they are in jail. What other result would there be?

There is no point. You said "one serviceman crime". I`m correct your words. That`s all.



Toad, why you still occupy German and Japan, than? Now they are democratic country. Still your bases are there.

[genozaur]

Originally posted by Toad
Here, let me help you grow.

I'll say: The Mexican-American war was not justified, it was wrong. The US should not have entered into the war between the Texans and the Mexicans.

Now YOU say: The Soviet invasion of Poland was not justified, it was wrong. The USSR should not have attacked Poland when it was trying to fight off the Nazi invaders.

See? It's not that hard to be honest.

The USSR invasion of Poland was a perfectly timed solution of the border conflict between Poland and the USSR which helped to settle this matter once and for many years ahead between Poland on one side, and the Ukraine and Belorussia (former constituent republicks of the USSR) on the other side. And thanks to cruel Comrade Stalin there's no more big wars for the terrotories between these three newly independent states. Even Bikekil is satisfied.
And what's your interest in it, Toad ?
I guess you can't wait for the "revolution of oranges" (a la Ukraine) in Belorussia.
Still want to have more "banana republics" under the USA control ? Wake up ! It's the XXIst century already.  

[Nekto]

Originally posted by Toad
Would it have made any difference at all? Remember,  in 1978 KAL 902, another airliner that had been clearly identified as civilian was shot down by a pilot ordered to destroy the aircraft.

I've read Russian sites about this case and they tell the story quite otherwise. Pilot didn't know for sure it was a civilian plane. It behaved as a mature spy-in-the-sky.
http://nvo.ng.ru/printed/history/2004-06-11/5_karelia.html (in Russian)

As the inquiry progresses the pilot of Flight 902, Captain Kim Chang Ky and the aeronavigator Li Chin Sin admitted they understood orders of Soviet fighters but refused to obey.

[genozaur]

Originally posted by Toad

There are no American tanks mandating who rules in Japan or Germany. If you try to make that case you show yourself to be even more of a fool. Go ahead, tell the German and Japanese posters here that their governments are mandated by the US military. They'll laugh even harder at you. [/B]

Toad, it means nothing for me to look a fool in the eyes of a real fool.
Hey, German and Japanese posters !
Toad says that the US occupation of your countries is good for your health, and it's probably even better than drinking Coca-Cola.
Everybody who disagrees, please line-up along the remnants of the Berlin Wall.
And Toad also says that there are no American tanks ... in Japan or Germany [END OF PARTIAL QUOTE].

Toad, to cut it short, the US-based international monopolies by their flagrant aggressive and unpopular actions instigate hatred around the globe against the USA, her government and people. And the blind moles like yourself are trying to behave like ostriches.
Please tell me more about Stalin's atrocities.
 

[genozaur]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Is that kind of like saying, "There are no horses in that field, only brown horses are in that field"?

Just search Stalin Quotes, you will find numerous sources.

Holden, aren't you sick just reading about Stalin's atrocities. The guy died 50 years ago. Everyone in the world condemned his atrocities. Good ! But when a lone Moscovite [a.k.a. the Beard] just utters a word about something good that was done by Stalin, the whole world is joining a stampede with the only purpose to strangle that Moscovite.
Shouldn't you be more interested in the modern internal affairs of these United States ?
Don't you understand that directing the attention of the American public towards Stalin's crimes is a cheap propaganda trick in order to divert people's attention from current very urgent problems of the society ?
The more I read anti-Russian propaganda, the more I become convinced that "1984" has long gone, and "2004" is much worse (mostly potentionally now, but you watch). No joke.
This is what says the guy with almost four decades of experience under Soviet rule.

[Suave]

I haven't decided who's making the wannabe soviets look more foolish, Toad or Genozaur.

[Holden McGroin]

genozaur,

Forward deployment does not equal occupation.

Forward deployment is basing troops on foreign soil by mutual agreement.  US troops are in Germany by NATO agreement.

Occupation is basing troops on foreign soil by force.  Soviet tanks in Prague in August '68 was invasion followed by occupation.

Okinawa was occupied until 1972 when sovereignty was passed to the Japanese.  If the Japanese wish us to go, we would have to do so, just like we left the bases of Clark and Subic Bay in the Phillipines when our welcome ran out in PI.

One can make the argument that Okinawa is presently occupied by Japan, as it was an independant country prior to 1880.

[genozaur]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
genozaur,

Forward deployment does not equal occupation.

Forward deployment is basing troops on foreign soil by mutual agreement.  US troops are in Germany by NATO agreement.

Occupation is basing troops on foreign soil by force.  Soviet tanks in Prague in August '68 was invasion followed by occupation.

Okinawa was occupied until 1972 when sovereignty was passed to the Japanese.  If the Japanese wish us to go, we would have to do so, just like we left the bases of Clark and Subic Bay in the Phillipines when our welcome ran out in PI.

One can make the argument that Okinawa is presently occupied by Japan, as it was an independant country prior to 1880.

Holden, my views and words may be a little bit antiquated but probably I still missed that point in time when the Roman occupation of Iudea effectively turned out to be the forward deployment.

[Holden McGroin]

Genozaur, you are so clever to bring up things that do not have anything to do with your false assertion that the US troops occupy Germany or Japan.

I will type slowly so you can maybe get this.

Forward deployment:

We have troops in Germany and Japan because of mutual agreements.  
We had an agreement with PI, but when the Phillipine Senate voted against extending the presence of Clark and Subic leases, we left.

Same would go for Germany and Japan.  Should those governments decide that we should go home, we would leave, following whatever rules are laid down in the agreements we and they have signed.

If you wish you may study the politics of the Peloponnesian War and see if Sparta had a similar relationship with Thebes, but it really does not make any difference to Germany, Japan, and the United States if you do.