MA "merge" - without being shot in the face

[Shane]

Originally posted by WDOT4W
OKOK,

I guess I need help... I got shot in the face 3 times over the weekend thinking the whole way I'd made them miss ... (sigh)

psssst..  just because you close your eyes...

easiest way (the more you do it the easier it'll become with the timing) is around 2-3k out from the con(s) is to go into a shallow dive if possible, build up some speed and then about 800-1k out start your lead turn/roll... often as you start that turn, you'll see the guy going past you and you'll be able to use that speed/angle to be on his 6 (possibly even with a shot oppt'y).

the important thing, tho' in the absence of ability to dive for speed (or if you have speed already) is to start your move 800-1k out. any closer and your begging for a HO, so either aim better and shoot first or get used to taking a HO/collision.

if you see me on, ask me to take you to the DA for a while to work on this very simple move. Once you understand the timing involved, it's only a matter of time and hard work before, you, too will be called a cheater for your ability to get around on the joust-bunnies.

[WDOT4W]

Thx for the tips...

I still got a lot to learn...

W-W
DOT4

[java45]

Originally posted by Happy1
Hi wetrat  tried downloading ur film but keep getting the following error msg:

                  The page cannot be found

Would u pls fixit?  Thx  

Happy1  

I was able to download film no problem but film is in an unsupported format ie. rar HELP

[java45]

Originally posted by Soda
Not always the case, quite often HO's come down to situation.  Someone who has few options (out of energy, surrounded, being bounced) may HO simply to try and make you re-think the likely outcome in order so that they can improve their situation.  For someone that has better options that accepting the HO, the fact the enemy may persist in trying to HO (regardless if he has other options or not) then you should be able to convert that into a position of advantage (typically angular advantage).

Face it though, if you are all over someone and give up a HO opportunity for the enemy, if he knows it may be the best opportunity he has why wouldn't he take it?

Even though I am a junior member ( since I have left and returned many times ) what Soda says has always been my position on this highly uncared for tactic.

WTG Soda couldnt agree more

[2bighorn]

Originally posted by java45
I was able to download film no problem but film is in an unsupported format ie. rar HELP

You need unpacking utility like win-rar or similar.

[SkyWolf]

Originally posted by Shane
psssst..  just because you close your eyes...

easiest way (the more you do it the easier it'll become with the timing) is around 2-3k out from the con(s) is to go into a shallow dive if possible, build up some speed and then about 800-1k out start your lead turn/roll... often as you start that turn, you'll see the guy going past you and you'll be able to use that speed/angle to be on his 6 (possibly even with a shot oppt'y).

 

 -Shane......This will probably come as a shock... but I'm pretty fershnagling stoooopud. The lead turn after the shallow dive... towards Joe HO (seems bad) or away? When you say roll...do you mean roll left or right or something else?

Thanks,
Woof

[StarOfAfrica2]

Originally posted by SkyWolf
 -Shane......This will probably come as a shock... but I'm pretty fershnagling stoooopud. The lead turn after the shallow dive... towards Joe HO (seems bad) or away? When you say roll...do you mean roll left or right or something else?

Thanks,
Woof

Whichever way works best to gain separation and line up for the turn.  If he's already offset a bit to your right then swing out wide to the left and set up your turn.  If he's on your left, do the opposite.  Shane and the other good sticks could probably give you a better setup for this, but this is how I setup for that situation.  If it looks from 3-4k out (where I can actually start seeing a PLANE and not a DOT lol) that he's trying to line up headon, at about 1.5k out I start a barrel roll to the left.  3/4 of the way around (with my right wing pointing down to the ground) I go into a 2-3g flat turn toward the target, trying to anticipate where I'm going to intercept.  I make a last minute evaluation of his speed, maybe go high or low in my turn to adjust my own speed, and then go in and take the shot.  And usually miss lol.  But thats just me.  I still have alot of work to do on judging my position for the shot and my accuracy.  Because of that, I'll often use a lag turn in this situation instead of the lead, so I have more time to line up and so I can keep the target in view at all times until I do line up.  But then that gives my opponent more time to evade as well.  Its all about choices, and deciding which ones give you the most advantages.



This all assumes I keep my head and dont blow it by being brain dead and go into a headon merge.  I do that too often still.  Have to try to change at the last second, and thats too late even if your opponent doesnt take the HO shot.

[gofaster]

Screw all that nonsense and fly a 190A8 with the elephant guns package and embrace the HO!

Having said that, the HO is a great way to equalize an unequal situation.  If the other guy is in a faster plane, or turns better, or has more energy or has more altitude, or has more friends nearby or is a better pilot or flies a plane with a lower ENY number, or has wing-mounted guns, then I will push for the HO.  

The P-38, 190A8, Me-110 and Mosquito will usually win most HO jousts, so don't be afraid to give that attacking P-51D or Spit IX a face full of lead as he charges in.  Typhoons can be a bit tricky because of the reach of their cannons, but just open up before he does so that your shells land first, then duck out of the way when the counter gets to d600 before you get within his convergence zone.

I flew Air Warrior for years and the HO was the standard salute before engaging in the real fighting.  It was like having full deflector shields - you hardly ever got hit from the front.  And there was no such thing as a collision, so you didn't have to worry much about losing a wing at the merge.  If you fired your guns at the HO, you were just wasting ammo (or hoping for a lucky ping).  As they introduced more planes with AW2 and AW3, some planes got off better with the HO than others, but it was still a widely-used practice.  

Aces High changed all that.  Collisions and new damage modeling required a change in tactics. But changing tactics wasn't as difficult as learning the new ballistics and flight model.  Old habits are hard to break, but they can be broken.  Its just a matter of whether you really need to or not.  In a 190A8, or a P-38, or any other plane with big nose-mounted guns, the HO is the way to go.  Its easy to shoot a non-maneuvering target and the enemy that accepts an HO makes my job easier because he flies nice and straight into my gunsight pipper.  I don't have to worry about bullet travel time or deflection shooting 'cuz the target is stationary relative to where my guns are pointing.

I get a laugh when I'm in a Yak or 109 with the big 30mm gun and can tag a guy in an HO.  One shot, one kill!

[wetrat]

gofaster, the purpose of this thread is to help people AVOID being a a HO jousting tard and learning how to actually fly instead of pulling for a nose-nose shot EVERY time. Please don't propogate your idiotic jousting nonsense in this thread. If you tried any of that crap on me, you'd be dead in under 30 seconds.

[Grizzly]

To start with, ignore the idea that a HO is an unsportsman thing to do. That only works if you know your opponent well and can trust him. Anytime you have your opponent in your gun sight and in range, you'd be silly not to pull the triggure. HOs happen even if you try to avoid them. If you don't shoot, the other guy will.

But the HO should be strongly avoided beyond sportsmanship. When merging, the moment you would be shooting for a HO is the most important moment in the fight. It is the time you should be preparing for your initial move and thinking beyond the merge.

[gofaster]

Originally posted by wetrat
gofaster, the purpose of this thread is to help people AVOID being a a HO jousting tard and learning how to actually fly instead of pulling for a nose-nose shot EVERY time. Please don't propogate your idiotic jousting nonsense in this thread. If you tried any of that crap on me, you'd be dead in under 30 seconds.

Idiotic jousting nonsense?  If you're in an A8, a 109, a Mossie, or P-47 against a Hurricane, a Zero, a Spit, a Ki-84, or any other turners, the odds of avoiding a joust are zero if the other guy sees you coming.  Unless the guy is out of ammo or AFK.

If your guns are bigger than his, use the joust Luke.

[wetrat]

Originally posted by gofaster
Idiotic jousting nonsense?  If you're in an A8, a 109, a Mossie, or P-47 against a Hurricane, a Zero, a Spit, a Ki-84, or any other turners, the odds of avoiding a joust are zero if the other guy sees you coming.  Unless the guy is out of ammo or AFK.

If your guns are bigger than his, use the joust Luke.

The chances of you landing a shot on me in one of those planes is ZERO if I see you coming. The chances of me killing you inside 30 seconds are 100%. The fact that you listed the 109 and 47 with those other two planes further convinces me you don't know what you're talking about.

[gofaster]

Are you suggesting that a 109 and P47 can outturn a Hurri, Spit V, and Zero?

[Shane]

depending on which 109 and which jug...  it's possible to outfly any of the planes you mentioned, but you have to factor in pilot ability. in pure, cold, plane performance, no.

i've whacked many "better" turners in a p-47d11 and 109f4 in a variety of situations from co-alt to at a "disadvantage."

[wetrat]

I'm suggesting that you don't know what you're talking about, and that it's rather easy to kill anyone in ANY plane if they're a jousting idiot, provided you know how to bait said idiot in to doing something stupid. Fortunately for me, these idiots have already killed themselves if they pull for a HO shot while I'm gaining angles and position.