Author Topic: Manual Inflight trim? (Read 717 times)

Naudet · « **on:** June 25, 2001, 06:48:00 AM »

Can someone give me some good advice of how to fly and fight without the combattrim option??

I yet tried it and can land the planes wonderful with manual trimming, but have probs using manual trim in a fight cause i am much to busy with fighting.

Lephturn · « **Reply #1 on:** June 25, 2001, 09:47:00 AM »

A great way around this is to use the various auto-trim modes to help you. I wrote an article about just that quite a while ago, and you can find it here: http://lephturn.webhop.net/trim.htm

I need to update this article since it doesn't mention combat trim, but it does give you an idea of how you can use the auto-trim modes to help you with manual trim to keep your plane in a good trim state. However, if you find yourself "forgetting" about the trim in a fight because you are too busy, you may do better with combat trim.

Combat trim gets you close. I use it all the time with no problems, but I disable it when I need to. The beauty of CT is that it gets turned off the instant you touch a manual trim key, and turned back on by using the auto-trim. This means that I can use CT and my auto trim modes, but if I feel I need to manual trim, it automatically shuts off the CT. It is a good system, a great compromise between those with 2 button joysticks, and those with full HOTAS gear.

Naudet · « **Reply #2 on:** June 25, 2001, 12:29:00 PM »

Lepthurn, i know ur article, but i actually was not specific enough with my request. Sry for that.

Ok 1st the reason why i want manual trim in combat.

The D9 autotrims has the tendency to roll the plane to the right at speeds below 300 IAS down to landing speed. The actuall caused right roll is stronger than the the torque based left roll if u let the plane fly neutral.

Cause in turns i often get below 300 IAS i always have to counter that movement, which makes targeting inaccurate.

I have flown many other planes this tour i found the combat trim most often better balanced and the Dhog actually needs no combat trim between 150-330 mph IAS.

Cause of this i asked for manual trim help.

Or is this a thread for the bug board?

Fatty · « **Reply #3 on:** June 25, 2001, 12:38:00 PM »

I never liked autotrim in any plane, even less in the LW planes, because I don't like the "center" of my stick moving without my knowledge. A lot of guys trim as they fly, but I prefer setting the tabs before combat and leaving them there, then I always know where the stall line is (trimmed for 300 or so usually, little faster or slower depending on plane).

Never did understand the upside to having your stick move around without your input.

Lephturn · « **Reply #4 on:** June 25, 2001, 02:36:00 PM »

Naudet,

Remeber Combat Trim is not meant to be exact, just get you close. CT won't let you fly hands off, but it will keep you from being too far out of trim. You still need to use auto trim modes for hands-off flight. If you use flaps, put gear down, or anything like that CT won't trim properly for that, so keep that in mind.

Now you said "autotrims has the tendency to roll", you mean combat trim right? The auto trim modes should not roll at all. If they do, there may be a problem there. They work fine for me in my Jug and Hellcat.

Still, the procedure I outline in that article is still accurate. The bottom line is to trim your plane for the speed you want to fight at. The easiest way is to fly at that speed and altitude, then trim the plane out. Auto trim can make that much easier, but can do it as well with manual trim. Once your plane is well trimmed for your planned fighting speed, you simply fly off. As your speed changes from that state and you get out of trim, you can adjust with manual trim and count the keystrokes if you like, so that you can get right back to that "perfect" condition when necessary. Remember flaps affect this as well, so if you will be turnfighting with a notch of flap popped, set your trim initially in this condition, then when you pull them in, either just deal with it or manual trim and count the keystrokes. You don't HAVE to count the keystrokes if you don't want to, I'm just pointing out that this is one way you can get the plane perfectly trimmed for a given situation if that is the plan.

Fatty,

Are you talking Combat Trim or the Auto Trim modes?

BTW, the issue is that because we don't have mechanical sticks/linkages, the center moves without your input as you change speeds. Trimming the plane fixes that. Combat trim keeps you "close" all the time at all speeds, and is the simple solution to the problem for most situations.

Fatty · « **Reply #5 on:** June 25, 2001, 02:44:00 PM »

CT, Leph. I could see trimming midfight if I had a force feedback stick, but without some sort of feedback to stick forces I'd rather have a static center and get used to where edges are speedwise by plane (exception being elevator on occasion).

Rocket · « **Reply #6 on:** June 25, 2001, 03:42:00 PM »

Hey guys!

Here is what I do for trim.
I have combat trim on.
I use Auto trim heavily.

I have found out combat trim is slow to react and tends to cause me problems with nose bounce in a firing solution alot. Trimming from the keyboard is a pain in the middle of combat so I do this.

In the joystick mapping I have my views mapped to my hat the way I want them on Stickset 1. I mapped stickset 2 to have the trim on my hat. Forward on the hat trims nose down.. back trims nose up.. Aileron is left/right and angle right and angle left works the rudder. At that point I mapped a couple of buttons to switch me from set 1 to set 2. This took care of the problem of not having a fancy throttle setup with an extra hat. In combat I can watch the con. Click a button.. trim abit and click right back to the con. It took a bit to get used to flipping back and forth and not losing sight of the con but once you get the hang of it the plane seems much more stable.

I still use combat trim to level me up after making a turn ib to target area or small alt changes I may make but I do use the manual trim heavily during combat.

S!
Rocket

Naudet · « **Reply #7 on:** June 25, 2001, 05:33:00 PM »

yes lephturn i meant combattrim.

i will try the method of trimming my D9 out for i.e. 330 mph, than go in and look how it behave maybe i will also put the trim for ailerons and elevator on my cooly hat

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #8 on:** June 26, 2001, 08:29:00 AM »

I trim level for cruise speed. After that, in combat, I trim only elevator every time I lose ~75 MPH so I can *just* ride the edge of the stall.
-SW

flakbait · « **Reply #9 on:** June 26, 2001, 10:11:00 AM »

Jekyll once called me nuts for not using Combat Trim when we dueled in the TA a long time ago. I was in a Spit 9, manually triming, and won the short bout. Since the first day I came here the only thing I've ever used was autopilot. Whether it be climbing or flying level so I could raid the fridge. Otherwise, I just use manual trim. My left hand rests on the keyboard trim keys as I fly. P is WEP and I remapped ; to look forward-down so I could see all the gauges. This means I've got all the keys I need at my fingertips for flying.

I don't trim for takeoff at all, instead I'll get the aircraft up and raise the gear. Once it's up, I'll trim it roughly to where I want it. Depending on where I am, H2H FFA game or teams, I might cut in autopilot or auto-climb. Once in a fight I rarely touch the trim, when I do it's the rudder trim since I've got a twisty stick. A friend of mine, and Navy recruiter, once watched me in a H2H game. After three fights I bought it because my SA Alert System failed to notify me of an impending collision....with a cliff. He said I was using the keyboard trim like crazy, but I don't remember doing it. I'm so used to manual trim that when I did try combat trim I forgot it was even on. The first time it started to trim the ailerons I didn't like it; and retrimmed them. Killed CT and went back to my usual flying without it. The way I figure it, if you have to use trim to win a fight something is wrong.

Naudet flying without CT on takes some getting used to if you've been using it for any length of time. Just like me trying to use CT for the first time. Take it slow offline and get used to the idea of manually trimming. Just in case you didn't know:

i = Nose down
k = Nose up
j = Left rudder
L = Right rudder
< = Left aileron
> = Right aileron

The nice part is WEP is just one key away from the right rudder trim. And in my case, forward-down view for when I'm flying a 190 is right next to it. Working the throttle or RPM is something I only do when I'm at my cruising altitude. Otherwise I just stick to full power like everyone else. My right hand stays welded to the stick, flying the aircraft and working views with the hat. While my left floats around working keys, trimming the aircraft, taking screen shots, etc... It works, but you'll be VERY busy for the first few flights until you get used to it.

-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb

Nifty · « **Reply #10 on:** June 26, 2001, 10:35:00 AM »

actually, flak, I think you remapped the trim keys for aileron control. I'm pretty sure the default keys are m and , (< that is) I remapped mine to , and . (< and > ) as that just "looked" correct.

I haven't started trimming in combat yet, but I trim manually for landings. (and sometimes for takeoff, but I usually just use rudder stick inputs to counteract torque and slipstream effects)

flakbait · « **Reply #11 on:** June 26, 2001, 11:07:00 AM »

Huh, I didn't even remember I remapped that key! I've had the same key settings since back in 1.04 so you can imagine what problems this can cause!

-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb

Nifty · « **Reply #12 on:** June 27, 2001, 10:10:00 AM »

hell, I could be screwed up. But I was pretty sure when my Saitek said "you're going to use the WWII profile when you play AH" that when I went to view the clipboard it started trimming my plane left! (M is map in WWIIOL)

I just remapped everything in both games to work with one profile since it was having an identity crisis.

Swager · « **Reply #13 on:** June 27, 2001, 11:11:00 AM »

My left hat was always mapped for the trim keys. In LW A/C this was essential for me because of the compression. At times you pull out using trim, because the stick is nulified (it seems). It was second nature for me to manually trim during combat, especially when the speeds changed alot.

Left and right hat direction were for the airelons (roll) and up and down hat direction for the the stabilizer (pitch). It takes awhile to get used to, but is worth it in the long run.