Author Topic: More 109 goodness  (Read 4240 times)

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #105 on: March 06, 2005, 03:50:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Depending on the year in question, the Spitfire was not very fast as sea level.

That would probably have been bomber Mossies doing a daylight raid from 15,000 to 20,000ft.  Given the sheer odds, he was almost certainly flying a Spitfire LF.Mk IX.  The slow assed F.Mk IX we have in AH was a very rare bird.
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Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #106 on: March 06, 2005, 03:58:04 PM »
Personal attack
« Last Edit: March 07, 2005, 02:47:40 PM by Skuzzy »
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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #107 on: March 06, 2005, 04:04:19 PM »
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It seems I just struck Karnak`s nerves with a sledgehammer.


Go away Barbi.  Can you not discuss these aircraft without attacking people?

Quote
That would probably have been bomber Mossies doing a daylight raid from 15,000 to 20,000ft. Given the sheer odds, he was almost certainly flying a Spitfire LF.Mk IX.


At those altitudes the Merlin 66 (+25) was  substantially slower than the FW-190A8 on boost.

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: March 06, 2005, 04:10:38 PM by Crumpp »

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #108 on: March 06, 2005, 04:34:45 PM »
Personal attack
« Last Edit: March 07, 2005, 02:48:14 PM by Skuzzy »

Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #109 on: March 06, 2005, 05:28:35 PM »
Personal attack
« Last Edit: March 07, 2005, 02:48:32 PM by Skuzzy »
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Offline thrila

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« Reply #110 on: March 06, 2005, 05:41:20 PM »
Self-moderation
« Last Edit: March 07, 2005, 02:48:58 PM by Skuzzy »
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #111 on: March 06, 2005, 06:09:27 PM »
Personal attack
« Last Edit: March 07, 2005, 02:49:14 PM by Skuzzy »
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #112 on: March 06, 2005, 06:12:22 PM »
Personal attack
« Last Edit: March 07, 2005, 02:49:39 PM by Skuzzy »
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Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #113 on: March 06, 2005, 06:17:13 PM »
I was just going to point out the difference between east and west front :)

Isegrim, the eastern front was a huge area, and the Russians had poor (at best) early warning and raid detection.

As a comparison, the Luftwaffe mounted the "baby blitz" over London Jan - May 1944. They lost 330 aircraft in the process,

And you are ASSuming the Mosquito sorties are all by night, they are not. Of the bomber sorties, 12.7% were by day. I don't have a breakdown of the "other" sorties by time of day.

Quote
"High profile nuisance"


To put this "nuisance" as you describe it into perspective, the Mosquitos dropped 26,867 tons of bombs. The Germans managed to drop around 21,000 tons of bombs on Britain between June 1941 and May 1945, a much longer period than the Mosquito was in operation (and that INCLUDES the V weapons).

Granted the small numbers of Mosquito bombers were, compared to the huge tonnages the allies were dropping on Germany, just a nuisance, but the value of the recconisance they delivered was invaluable. That was something the Germans could only wish for, as they were unable to make recce flights over Britain for most of 1944.

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #114 on: March 06, 2005, 06:19:34 PM »
Personal attack
« Last Edit: March 07, 2005, 02:50:10 PM by Skuzzy »

Offline Angus

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« Reply #115 on: March 06, 2005, 06:29:32 PM »
Well, my sword is a Claymore you fool.
(gotta be that big when swinging from an angus :D)

He who LIVES by the sword shall die by the sword BTW.


Anyway, I have never spotted anything but very authentic and reliable data from Karnak, unlike YOU, which is why I pick the fight while he's not at the console. He can well stand in his own legs, - that's why we are both on yer gitty list (I'm actually rather proud of it so don't delete me plz)
I have little doubt that he will be back.

Then the mission losses and the maths.....
Anyway, look at the amazing loss rate on the western front on your list, - hehe. Look at the fact that most of the missions flown were also over own territory, not much deep penetration going on. Then consider that the LW lost more to the RAF in 6 months of 1940 than on the eastern front (according to your list) in 1944. Then try to get over the fact that this low loss year was the year the LW still completely lost the airwar on both fronts.
Funny, isn't it.
And the nail in yer rear is basically from Milo
"The LW could only fly 19 sorties without a loss. Sure makes the Mossie, at 157, look good."
hehee, was that a nice spotting.
Most of the Mosquito ops were deep over enemy territory, and she did NOT fly far on one engine. There is nothing axis that even comes close to her achivements, i.e. statistically. You must have missed a decimal when you posted your numbers, - thank's for them anyway.
As for the futile attacks dropping bombs into forestland and then running or whatever, I am saddened by your selective ignorance that the Mossie was intensively used for precision bombing and target marking.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #116 on: March 06, 2005, 10:11:15 PM »
Barbi,

You simply don't know what you are talking about in regards to Mosquito service history.  You put out a bunch of statements that were wrong.  Badly wrong.  Yet you act as though you have read as much about it as you have about the Bf109.  You actually claimed that it had a worse loss rate than the Blenheim.  Where you got that I have no idea since none, and I mean none, of my multiple books on the subject of Mosquitos say anything other than the direct opposite of that.

For example, a lot of those sorties would have been marker sorties and so would not have been dropping orinance on German targets.  That has the effect of lowering the tonnage per sortie.  Further you statement about randomly dropping bombs on German would be a pretty accurate description of British bombing efforts by Stirlings, Blenheims and Wellingtons in 1941, but it is a very poor description of RAF bombing in 1944 and 1945 where they at times exceeded the USAAF's daylight accuracy, thanks in no small part to the Mosquito pathfiders that were marking the targets for the Lancs and Halifaxes.  The post I was responding to was, bluntly, uneducated.

Here is a table of Mosquito bomber losses on night missions:


As a loss rate comparison for you, I'll give you this:

Stirling: 3.81%
Blenheim: 3.62%
Ventura: 3.6%
Wellington: 2.8%
Boston: 2.48%
Halifax: 2.28%
Lancaster: 2.13%
Mosquito: 0.63%



As to attitude.  Check the mirror big boy.  You will respond in full agreement if somebody posts the list of flaws for an Allied aircraft, as you did to my list for the Spitfire.  However, whenever somebody suggests that the Bf109 (I've seen you tear at Crump in regards to the Bf109 vs the Fw190) you immediatey respond with a counter list of why those flaws either didn't exist or were in fact not flaws.  I've yet to ever see you say anything actually positive about an British aircraft and the only things that I've seen you say that could be taken as positive about American aircraft, that I recall, was as a backhanded insult.  You are the only person who posts on this forum who will not make a realistic acknoweldgement of the flaws of your pet aircraft.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2005, 10:15:41 PM by Karnak »
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Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #117 on: March 07, 2005, 06:22:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
I was just going to point out the difference between east and west front :) Isegrim, the eastern front was a huge area, and the Russians had poor (at best) early warning and raid detection.
As a comparison, the Luftwaffe mounted the "baby blitz" over London Jan - May 1944. They lost 330 aircraft in the process,
[/B]

You forget to mention Soviet AA was vast and everywhere, the Red Air Force much more numerous than the RAF, and that sorties were flown in daylight, in large flights, making it easy to find them, and by aircraft that were rather slower in general - unlike as noted lone Mossies slipping through the nightly skies somewhere over continent Europe.. Downplaying the scale of the eastern front air battles, and claiming that lone Mosquitos faced worser conditions, under the night, where only slower twin engined night fighters patroled the sky, is simply ridiculus.
Yet the loss statistics prove that the 0.6% odd loss rate is hardly unique, and were achieved by a large number of aircraft in other theatres, ie. the B-26s had also similiar record in the PTO, so it`s not a sort of wonder as Karnak want to sell about his perfect, flawless aircraft that was 'impossible' to be intercepted. :lol



Quote

And you are ASSuming the Mosquito sorties are all by night, they are not. Of the bomber sorties, 12.7% were by day. I don't have a breakdown of the "other" sorties by time of day.[/B]


Every 8th sortie was during the day, so what ? How much is that, 2-3000 bomber sorties over to whole war in daylight?  2-3 major attacks by the RAFBC`s heavies worth, with the fraction of bombload carried. Most of them happening over places there were no LW patrols ? This proves, what :

a, the mosquitos had to hide under the darkness
b, there were only a minimal number of daylight bomber sorties flown. When those started, loss rate was 8% per sortie - TWICE as worse as the heavies during the night operation in the same period..
Doesn`t seems as sorties the Mosquito was so fast daylight sorties were a life insurance.


Quote

To put this "nuisance" as you describe it into perspective, the Mosquitos dropped 26,867 tons of bombs. The Germans managed to drop around 21,000 tons of bombs on Britain between June 1941 and May 1945, a much longer period than the Mosquito was in operation (and that INCLUDES the V weapons).[/B]


And to put that 26,867 tons of bombs Mosquitos dropped in total on Germany into context in the entire war, the Luftwaffe was dropping an avarage 29 726 tons of bombs on the Eastern Front EACH MONTH in the 2nd half of 1942, ie. some 208 000 tons in six months.

While Germany was the primary target of the RAF, seen as the most serious enemy, Britiain wasn`t anywhere near top priority on the LW`s list.the Germans mounted only one, not too serious bombing offensive against Britain after 1940, the baby blitz.  Nothing surprising imho, the british simply could not pose a threat to German that they would have to worry about. Much unlike the USSR. So basically you compared a primary and tertiary ToOs of the RAF/LW.



Quote

Granted the small numbers of Mosquito bombers were, compared to the huge tonnages the allies were dropping on Germany, just a nuisance, but the value of the recconisance they delivered was invaluable. That was something the Germans could only wish for, as they were unable to make recce flights over Britain for most of 1944. [/B]


Indeed probably the photos they took worth more than all their bombs. As for German recces, you obviously don`t know these very well, though you may have heard about the RAF`s failures intercepting them, FR 109s and Ju 86s. Even more I doubt the Mossie could achieve anything over Britain in 1944, given the number of Allied flights over such a small area as you underlined it.
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #118 on: March 07, 2005, 06:43:04 AM »
OMG.
"Luftwaffe was dropping an avarage 29 726 tons of bombs on the Eastern Front EACH MONTH"
They didn't haul them particularly far, nothing compared to the Mozzoes.
As for this:
" the mosquitos had to hide under the darkness "
You forgot the NF Mossies. Hiding and SEEKING, hehe

Wilhelm Jonen, German nightfighter ace:
"The mosquitos lived up to their name. They were the night fighters greatest plague and wreaked havoc among the German crews,,,,,,,,,,,,,They attacked us throughout the whole operation and interfered with our landing It was almost a daily occurence that shortly before divisional ops several Mosquitos would fly over the airfields and shoot down the Messerchmitts as they took off"
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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« Reply #119 on: March 07, 2005, 06:46:42 AM »
More to the bomb dropping.
During the BoB the LW dropped how much? Well, as much as they could, before starting to hide in darkness.
Facing a force only a friction of the Red airforce in size, yet they lost more aircraft in the last 6 months of 1940 than in the year 1944 on the eastern front.
And Britain was nowhere near being a deep penetration raid, you seem to forget that the Mossies had to overfly hundreds of miles each way of hostile territory just to get to Germany.
Berlin in some 600 miles from base for instance.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)