Author Topic: FIVE pilot wounds in a ROW?  (Read 1071 times)

Offline Kweassa

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FIVE pilot wounds in a ROW?
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2005, 10:05:03 PM »
Why would it be any harder than any other plane?

 It wasn't structured with titanium or something.

Offline BUG_EAF322

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FIVE pilot wounds in a ROW?
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2005, 04:35:26 AM »
Quote
LOL not in AH. Couple 20s at close range slice through it like buttah baby!


20mm dweeb :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

i bet u talk about typh run and ho tactics,

Offline Balsy

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FIVE pilot wounds in a ROW?
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2005, 07:57:18 AM »
Savage,

Please post the circumference of your head....did you ever get teased as a kid for being a "waterhead" ????

hehe

;)

Balsy

Offline FiLtH

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FIVE pilot wounds in a ROW?
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2005, 10:36:00 AM »
Being that there are hundreds of rounds converging on a small area, and just 1 of those can kill you, and the fact that the human body is centered in the most aimed at space on the plane, and takes up a considerable area of that space, we are lucky we arent killed outright, everytime our planes are shot at.

I dont think we realize the volume of fire, and the carnage that is created when 6 50s are unleashed upon you, if even for a second.

~AoM~

Offline DamnedRen

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FIVE pilot wounds in a ROW?
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2005, 10:54:50 AM »
Not much  damage considering the current hitting power of the .50s. Use a different argument.

Ren

Offline Scrap

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FIVE pilot wounds in a ROW?
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2005, 10:05:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
20mm dweeb :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

i bet u talk about typh run and ho tactics,


Wow how far off could you get?

Hint: the 20s I speak of are Type 99s

...or you could look at my posts above :D

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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FIVE pilot wounds in a ROW?
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2005, 10:23:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Why would it be any harder than any other plane?

 It wasn't structured with titanium or something.


For the benefit of those who would actually read and think about it:

Consider for a moment that the tail of the P-38 is unlike the tail of any other fighter plane from World War II. One look and that fact should be very obvious to even the most uninitiated.

As far as how tough the tail was, it was tough enough to permanently deflect over 12" when pulling out of a compression dive and not snap off.

The two booms are several feet apart (You can't stand between them and touch them both at the same time).

The booms are very narrow once you get behind the radiators (which is where the tail breaks off in AH). So narrow in fact that in real life enemy pilots were quick to mention that they were near impossible to hit there.

At any point where the weight of fire from an enemy plane would be heavy enough to do serious structural damage to one boom, the other boom would almost certainly not even be hit.

In order to break the tail off like happens in AH, you'd have to cut both booms nearly in two, or cut one completely in two and cut the other one near half way through. It just ain't real likely if you think about it.

Think about it for a minute. Consider the fact that the P-38 itself has a 30" circle of fire at any effective distance. Now consider that several times I've cut the tail off of another P-38. Now, a 30" circle of fire ain't even gonna come close tohitting both booms, period. So I should practically never be able to cut the tail completely off of a P-38 with a P-38. But it happens often.

The natural tendency is to aim dead center of what you're shooting at. And you'll generally shoot where you look and where you aim. Ever looked at the tail of a P-38? Only the elevator is in the center. From the elevator forward to the wing is empty air space. That is why enemy pilots often commented that the back of a P-38 was hard to hit, and hard to hurt. When you consider that the center nacelle, and both the twin booms, are as narrow, or even more narrow, than the fuselage on most planes, you'll realize that the P-38 is only a big target if you're shooting the elevator or across the wing. Every where else, from above, below, and the side, it actually has a relatively narrow profile where vital areas are. Compare profiles with a lot of other fighters, and you'll see that from many angles, the P-38 just does not present as big a target as you think. The vital areas are well seperated as well.

I cannot remember seeing any film of the tail of a P-38 being shot off. I cannot remember reading about any P-38 pilot seeing one get shot off, nor having one shot off. I do remember reading about a collision between two P-38's where the wing of one sliced the tail off of another. But then, the wing has a massive stainless steel spar in it. I also cannot remember ever reading about a German or Japanese pilot claiming to have shot the tail off of a P-38. It may have happened, I just haven't read, seen, or heard of it. I'd like to see evidence of it, it'd make the tail coming off of a P-38 in AH a lot more believable.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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FIVE pilot wounds in a ROW?
« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2005, 10:25:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Balsy
Savage,

Please post the circumference of your head....did you ever get teased as a kid for being a "waterhead" ????

hehe

;)

Balsy


I wear a 7 3/8" Stetson Trophy Bull Rider hat.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline mechanic

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FIVE pilot wounds in a ROW?
« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2005, 10:30:27 PM »
i see your point savage, but...

travelling at speed up to and exceding 350mph the pressures on the tail is quite obvious.

now consider a good shot to the left hand boom, and all structural support from this boom being eliminated.

now consider the extreme forces that have been transfered from two booms to just one and it's obvious why the whole tail section breaks off.

even with no damage surely a single boom has no chance of hold the tail plane solidly after the other boom has been severed.

I'm no physician tho, so i could be wrong.
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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FIVE pilot wounds in a ROW?
« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2005, 10:44:38 PM »
I believe you are searching for the term physicist. But engineer would be a better choice.

I'm not saying it is impossible, that was not the point. The point was it would be extremely difficult, as witnessed by the lack of gun camera or other footage showing it, and the lack of reports of it happening. As often as it happens in AH, if it were realistic, there'd be truckloads of reports and a couple hundred feet of film of it.

Further, while you might think it would not be too difficult to actually saw one boom off with gunfire, it would actually be pretty tough. If I still had some of my old pics, I'd try to post one that shows a P-38 with one boom shot near to rags, mostly held together by stressed sheetmetal skin. You'd have figured it would rip off, but it barely deformed the other side.

It should be theoretically possible to shoot the tail off of a P-38, but you should probably have to see 50 or more shot down before you saw it happen.

In all honesty, it was pretty uncommon (at least from all the gun camera footage I've seen and all the reports/interviews I've read) to see the tail just come off of any fighter plane.

Perhaps it's just a "damage level marker" that shows a certain level of damage has occured, and the plane no longer remains flyable.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Kweassa

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FIVE pilot wounds in a ROW?
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2005, 11:16:23 PM »
Difficult for rifle-calibre or HMGs, no doubt.
 For cannons? No reason why not.

 But the problem is the limited instances and depiction of how damge is applied to each part. When a part is damaged in AH, there's no 'middle point' to it. There's no tattered, holed, drilled, dangling, and etc etc.. concerning damage.

 It is all-or-nothing.

 So what happens if somebody lands a lot of shots on one of the booms with .50s or rifle-calibre MGs? In real life it'd probably need not only a helluva lot of shots, but also a lucky 'pattern' that is grouped in a right way to not just tear open the skins but literally sever the internal structures so that particular boom is either ripped off or buckles under pressure.

 However, AFAIK there's no such 'internal structures' modelled in AH - whereever a bullet connects, the damage is calculated, and when a certain line has been crossed, the part is damaged. And since there's no such thing as 'partially damaged' status in AH, a damaged boom is a structurally busted boom - therefore, it falls off. This isn't particular with the P-38. It's a global DM issue.

 If a more sophisticated DM was developed, many things are prone to change concerning combat is dealt in AH.

 Just look at the incredible changes in gunnery-related realism when Pyro merely 'enhanced' the 'hit detection' a bit better than it used to be in AH1 - the average kill distance was cut down full 300 yards. As much, a new, more sophisticated DM would be almost traumatic to some people in that the scope of combat could be changed to something different in its entirety, once more.

 In this particular case you brought up, it would apply to all other planes as well, and the chances of causing a structural failure to many of the planes in AH would become extremely low. HMG armed planes will be complaining on how they can't shoot down anything directly. On the other hand, the differences between cannon rounds and machine guns would come more pronounced, and HMG armed planes would probably develop different methods of bringing down a target plane.

 But I digress. At any rate, one can only hope. A better, more sophisticated DM would surely be a good thing, no matter how much fuss it causes initially. It'd benefit the P-38 in this case you brought up, but it'd also benefit every other plane for that matter.

Offline DamnedRen

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FIVE pilot wounds in a ROW?
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2005, 12:15:52 AM »
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I'm not saying it is impossible, that was not the point. The point was it would be extremely difficult, as witnessed by the lack of gun camera or other footage showing it, and the lack of reports of it happening. As often as it happens in AH, if it were realistic, there'd be truckloads of reports and a couple hundred feet of film of it.

Further, while you might think it would not be too difficult to actually saw one boom off with gunfire, it would actually be pretty tough. If I still had some of my old pics, I'd try to post one that shows a P-38 with one boom shot near to rags, mostly held together by stressed sheetmetal skin. You'd have figured it would rip off, but it barely deformed the other side.

It should be theoretically possible to shoot the tail off of a P-38, but you should probably have to see 50 or more shot down before you saw it happen.

In all honesty, it was pretty uncommon (at least from all the gun camera footage I've seen and all the reports/interviews I've read) to see the tail just come off of any fighter plane.


Unfortunately, your talking RL versus virtual reality. Until you get that part through your head the thought process you are using might be considered valid.   Think about it for a minute.
 How many P-38'z do you honest think actually had enemy planes all over their 6 in a real life
dogfight? Let alone put X amount of round onto their tail feathers? Heck, many p-38's were actually shot down due to actual dogfights in the war? And of those, how many folks were left walking around to say they had their tails shot off?

Now take the same scenario where you see 4 guys behind some poor dude in a 38 or even one guy behind some 38 and he's got his trigger firmly pressed on the trigger at 200-300 yds out the odds, IN THE GAME, are pretty good the 38's gonna lose some tail feathers.

Game vs RL = two different animals entirely.

Ren

Offline Scrap

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FIVE pilot wounds in a ROW?
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2005, 07:00:53 PM »
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Originally posted by Scrap
Don't understand why anyone would shoot at the 38 canopy or nose.  It's sooooooo much easier to blast off that silly tail 2 tail 'vader.  Then u get to watch the 38 do what it does best:  the flipi-dy flop-idy dance O' death (TM) to terra firma. :D



Sav, I think you missed what I was trying to say.

"tail 2 tail 'vader" = elevator

I hardley ever shoot the entire tail section off of a P38.  It takes too much ammo to blow away one (or two) of the booms neccessary to split the plane in 2.  Usually I'll see the 'vader drop and the plane goes spinning to the turf with both tails n' rudders attached.