Author Topic: rivits??  (Read 789 times)

Offline rogerdee

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rivits??
« on: March 07, 2005, 05:13:18 PM »
Kev Greebo  Obeo  
How the hell do you get your rivits i got psp8  and  i cant  make  my  rivits  look  amythingother then blobs> whats  the secret guys,
comon spill the beans

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Offline oboe

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rivits??
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2005, 05:17:25 PM »
I use PS 6.0, so I'm not sure how much of this translates to PSP,
but use a 1 px brush (I use pencil mode for a hard edge) and autospace the dots at 300%.

I just click to place the first rivet, move my cursor to the end of the row, and SHIFT-click to fill in a line of rivets automatically.

Then I usually copy and paste this row of rivets all over the place,
rotating 90 deg as needed.

Offline Greebo

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rivits??
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2005, 05:53:13 PM »
I use the draw tool in PSP to create lines of rivets. I've created a line style that is basically a row of round dots. In the "tool options - draw" box, select the "custom" button, this brings up the "styled lines" box. In here make the "caps" drop down box the "ball" shape and the other three the "flat" shape. You can alter the size of the rivets with the top left "size" button. The top slider alters spacing. Save this line style as rivets.

Bear in mind you sometimes need more than one size and spacing of rivet line on a skin, parts of the skin may be scaled differently. You can draw with either straight lines or bezier curves with this method.

I usually create two rivets layers at first, horizontal in red and vertical in yellow. This makes it a lot easier to edit later on. Once correctly positioned I remove overlapping rivets on one of the layers and then merge the two layers.

Once I have this base rivet layer, for painted aircraft I duplicate it three times and then keep it as a backup. The duplicates become the rivet hollow shadows, rivet hollow highlights and rivets variable layers.

For rivet hollow shadows I change the rivets to black then gaussian blur them. Then I move the rivet shadows a couple of pixels diagonally on each part of the skin according to the light direction. I'm trying to get the rippled effect where the rivets create little dimples, so the shadows go nearest the light source.

The highlights are the same as shadows but white and moved the opposite way, away from the light source.

The variable layer is the base rivet layer turned light grey. Then I randomly erase bits of the layer so just a third or so of the rivets are left.

For aluminium skins I don't do the variable layer. The rivet layer is white and there is fourth black unblurred shadow layer offset away from the light.

After I have all my layers done I reduce the opacity of each layer until it looks right to me.

Offline oboe

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rivits??
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2005, 06:05:25 PM »
Greebo

Very interesting stuff!   I usually have 2 layers of rivets, one dark under one light.   The light one I move towards the light source, as it supposed to represent light glare off the surface of the rivet.   I never though of putting the shadow towards the light and the highlight away from the light.   Did I take your meaning correctly?

Offline Greebo

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rivits??
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2005, 06:25:46 PM »
Yes, those layers aren't the rivets themselves, but the dips in the aluminium skin where the rivet has deformed the surface. The gaussian blur makes the dots big enough to join each other in a near continuous line. I fade them to near invisibility, its just to hint at a 3D effect.

I still use normal rivet shadows on the aluminium skins, with the shadow away from the light source and not gaussian blurred.

Offline oboe

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rivits??
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2005, 09:06:01 PM »
Cool idea.   I didn't know you could Gaussian blur individual pixels...

Offline Kev367th

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rivits??
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2005, 01:43:18 PM »
Always use 3 layers.
1 Black

1 White

1 Copy of white, but go over it randomly with an eraser set to 33%. This gives you areas where the paint has worn away faster.



Look just inboard of the port engine, there is an area of white rivits that are slightly more visible. There are more just at the angle the pic is they show up better.

Or here where there are varying levels of ehite rivets.

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Offline rogerdee

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my try
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2005, 03:39:09 PM »
ok hd  a read of what you guys said   be expermenting  only used two layers so far  tell me  am i close?[/IMG]
what do you think?

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Offline Greebo

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rivits??
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2005, 05:43:41 PM »
I'd say the rivets are a bit too close together, they look too much like panel lines. Maybe space the dots a bit more.

Also use the partial eraser trick to make them look less uniform. Were the rivet lines that close together on the C-47?

Offline Kev367th

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rivits??
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2005, 08:34:36 PM »
I usuall space them rivet space space rivet.
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Offline Bullethead

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rivits??
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2005, 04:28:25 PM »
On most WW2 planes they used flush rivets.  These are totally invisible on both painted and unpainted planes beyond a range of more than a couple of feet.  As such, in the vast majority of cases, putting rivets on skins for WW2 planes is not only unrealistic, but a complete waste of time.

The only fasteners that are really visible even at very close combat range (where somebody else might notice them in the game, as opposed to you looking at the skin in ultra-close-up offline on the ground) are dome-head rivets and the big screws, dzus fasterners, etc. that hold down cowling, gunbay, and inspection/service panels.  Domehead rivets protrude above the skin and thus either get scraped clean of paint in high traffic areas (IOW where people walk a lot) and thus appear as sliver dots, or collect grime around the edges in low traffic areas, and thus appear as dark spots (when you include their 3D shadow).  The fasteners for removeable panels, however, had fasteners big enough for large scewdrivers to work on, were usually nowhere near flush,  and thus were usually quite obvious from close AH combat range.  These should always be darker than the surrounding skin (whether painter or unpainted) and, if in a painted area, should have some paint chips around them from the screwdrivers slipping off the fasteners.

Offline oboe

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rivits??
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2005, 04:37:55 PM »
This site has a P-47 photo walkaround that illustrates pretty much exactly what Bullethead is saying:

 http://cybermodeler.com/aircraft/p-47/p-47_walkaround.shtml

I think when creating small scale models though, there is a tendency to overemphasize details to increase the sense of authenticity.    Like anything, it can be overdone.

Offline Bullethead

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rivits??
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2005, 04:40:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kev367th
I usuall space them rivet space space rivet.


In real life rivets are about 1" apart between centers.  This is pretty much a uniform standard across the board, because it's more emperical than scientific.  Because rivet heads are about 3/8" wide at most, 1 pixel is way bigger than a rivet head at the scale of most skins.  This is another reason why putting rivets on a skin is usually unrealistic (as well as bad practice--see my other posts on rivet visibility).  However, in the few cases where fastener heads are justified (domehead rivets,  dzus fasteners on cowlings, etc.) it's better to use 2x2 pixel dots (at 1024x1024 skin files) and space them at least 6 pixels apart (in real life, the bigger the fastener, the further apart you can space them).

Offline Bullethead

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rivits??
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2005, 05:26:15 PM »
Quote
Oboe said:
I think when creating small scale models though, there is a tendency to overemphasize details to increase the sense of authenticity.    Like anything, it can be overdone.


I completely agree.  I built, washed, repaired, and/or painted real planes for about 30 years.  I've made either models or skins for about the same length of time, so I've definitely used my in-person perspective to get as much visual info as possible to make my creations as realistic as possible.  That's why I say that, for the most part, it's just unrealistic to do ANYTHING at all regarding rivets on your typical AH skin.  No disrespect to those who put all the rivets on skins (GAWD knows I know how much effort that is, having tried it a few times before I recognized the utter futility of getting it really right), but if on almost any AH skin you can see rivets beyond preflight inspection distance, let alone at combat distance, you've made an unrealistic, cluttered hash out of it.  Sorry to break it to you, but them's the facts.

Offline Kev367th

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rivits??
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2005, 08:10:23 PM »
Thats the beauty of doing skins.
It's not 'real' life, you include details people expect to see, not what may actually be visible.
Fine line though.

I know what your talking about thoguh, spent over 9 years maintaining rotary wing and fixed wing aircraft.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2005, 08:13:48 PM by Kev367th »
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