Author Topic: Close encounter of the 3rd kind.. (Read 738 times)

Am0n · « **on:** September 20, 2001, 09:57:00 AM »

No sir this is not another post about the infamous gravity defying N1K, i think that topic has been beat into the ground.

But the La7, a BnZer nightmare..
Heres how it happened.
I was very high above them scanning the skies in my F4D, i was at 20k and the targets were 10-15k. 2 spits heading west and i was heading north. having the ALT advantage i decided i would make a pass at them. breaking hard west and diving steep at one of the would be victims i unloaded on him hitting him good, lit up like christmas. Checking six i noticed he was spewing out thick black smoke.. in the same instance i noticed they were not alone, out of the peaks on the mountains came the UFO (a LA7) headed strait for me. buy now the spits were 3k out and the LA7 3.5k. I still had good alt/speed advantage on all the planes so i thought i would make a climbing run for it. The LA7 was lower than the spits even, so i THOUGHTi had good odds. (can you see where this is going?) Now leaving the spits in my wake was not a problem, but this speed deamon la7 passed them up and kept at me, closing very fast. Still climbing i thought to my self, he had energy built up for a fall or something and it was going to bleed away soon.. No. After long chase he started to slow as we reached 20k, but closing still. at 1.5 out i decided he was not going to stop closing and decided to make a Zero G dive evasive manuever, at 450-500 mph i gently pulled out of the dive and he nailed me good.. dead.

Sorry you had to read all this. My Question is where did i go wrong? ive heard (and now seen) the stories of the speed monger LA7, i did not realize it could climb so well and handle such extreme speeds and shoot steady. should insted of going for atl, started a gradual steady decline when he was 3k out (and lower).

Hopefully my losses were not in vein and the smokey slow flying spit met his maker as i did mine.

Thx for your time aces

[ 09-20-2001: Message edited by: Am0n ]

AcId · « **Reply #1 on:** September 20, 2001, 11:27:00 AM »

Being someone who has flown the LA-7 a lot when it was released I would say that just about any AC going from a climb to a 0-G dive is freshmeat.net, Especially if I've already got speed. LA-7 can accelerate (in a dive) to remarkable speeds.

I would say that you reacted too soon by going into your dive at d1.5k, he may not have been able to keep following you up. The la-7 needs to close to d300 for a "Quality" shot. Another thing, IMHO the la-7's handling starts dropping off drasticaly over 18k alt, meaning an la-7 over 20k against a decent HOG pilot won't want to stick around for long way up there. But if he would've managed stay with you over 20k some ACM by a HOG can cause him to overshoot and that is exactly what a high la-7 doesnt want and would probably dive to extend.

I hope some of this made some sence.

Thats all if you intended to fight him, If you see an la-7 coming and you know you don't want to fight, don't waste time wondering what to do, If your slow, dive and head toward the nearest base or friendly, If your fast, watch and see how quickly he's gaining (if he's lower), there are a lot of factors involved with any fight and it takes a lot of practice (and dying) to know when to hold em and know when to run.

[ 09-20-2001: Message edited by: AcId ]

Nifty · « **Reply #2 on:** September 20, 2001, 01:06:00 PM »

also, don't forget to go to the General Discussion board and whine about the La7 and the fact that you saw two Spits prior to the La7!

Lachovins and Nikis and Spits, oh my!

LOL!! I'm adding that to my siggie right now!

Am0n · « **Reply #3 on:** September 20, 2001, 03:10:00 PM »

lol
not whining here and not going to there.. he got me good, hats off to him he more than earned his kill.
Thanks ACID i didnt realize that the la7 wasnt so agile at high alts, we were way up at least 20k. I coulda shook him had i known that, i just went with what normaly works with other attackers under those circumstances. my hog can put a move on just about any plane at that alt, but i thought that the la7 was a good atl plane (just made since that a fast plane could handle great hieghts to me). But i was wrong, and i learned that lesson well!!
maybe i should have started a slight decline when he was 2k out to build speed then a short dive followed buy a sharp turn when he got close to firing range. would this have been effective? or can the la7 turn good at high speeds? (would have been lower alt given this scenerio)

None the less thanks for the info, feal free to post more!! im always open to sugestions.

AcId · « **Reply #4 on:** September 20, 2001, 04:43:00 PM »

Yeah, it's fast but I personaly don't dogfight over 18k with it, unless ofcourse the situation calls for it. Then I try to drag the enemy lower where I'm faster and more maneuverable. At high alts I'm very conservative with stick movements, an la-7 can blow all its E in one good turn up high. But to answer your question, yes, it is still very maneuverable at high speeds, especially low and it'll hold together in a high-G turn (i've never ripped the wings off). A tight turn by you that would cause him to blackout would be an ideal move granted that once the la-7 is turning and likely in blackout you should make another turn so that your not where he thinks you'll be after his blackout (get it?) then while he's scanning the skies you have a moment to maneuver for a possible shot or at least a chance to set one up. Thats all if he takes the bait and tries to follow you in the initial turn. He might not want to blackout and may extend a bit while climbing a little, If he does that you may be able to get off a snapshot if you can roll back into the direction you were initialy heading before the first turn (follow?). Kind of an overshoot i suppose.

LA-7 is a tough plane under 15k IMHO, I would think that a HOG would want to be in the position to BnZ, don't try to turnfight with him unless your over 20k.

Fester' · « **Reply #5 on:** September 21, 2001, 09:16:00 AM »

if anyone remembers the 190a5 when it was first introduced then you know the La7 is nothing new. just another flight model that needs to be adjusted. all the dweebs capitalize on the bug like they do with the m16 till its fixed.

thats the way it goes

if you fly a plane other than the n1k2 or la7 just expect these two aircraft to do odd things whenever they are in any sort of vertical move from climb, dive to zoom.

you then will not be surprised by their ability to do things that no other aircraft in AH is capable of.

Kweassa · « **Reply #6 on:** September 21, 2001, 09:26:00 AM »

Um.. question, Fester.. What bug?

I've heard and experienced the "fuel leak" bug, but I don't think I've heard anything about something about LA-7 performance. Can you plz clarify on this?

Fester' · « **Reply #7 on:** September 21, 2001, 10:18:00 AM »

la7 has same problem as n1k2 just not as bad

Apache · « **Reply #8 on:** September 21, 2001, 11:21:00 AM »

and which problem might that be fester? Too much e retention?

Come on, you know as well as I do that that won't neuter the La7. It accelerates like a bat outta hell. A little less e retention ain't gonna hurt.

Boozer · « **Reply #9 on:** September 21, 2001, 08:29:00 PM »

BnZ an La-7 with the F4UD only above 20k??

I've been doing something terribly wrong by taking every LA-7 into a turn figth with my F4 and usually sending the La-7 home (they're touchy about getting within 600 yds, go figure)

Maybe I've been fighting lousy La-7 pilots but my F4UD has never been outturned.

-Booz

DanielMcIntyre · « **Reply #10 on:** September 22, 2001, 01:18:00 AM »

I'm one of those dweebs that capitalizes on the La7's uber flight model, but only for base defense, cause its quick to get up and has the speed to get away from the vulchers. I have a bit of experience vs F4U's C and D's in La7 and I think the La7 outclasses it in almost all areas except low speed handling and firepower in the C model. I could be wrong but I'm sure i've been outturned on numerous occasions at low speeds by the F4U.

Think your best defense there would've been better SA and making sure you had enough E to get back up where your speed and alt would've given you a chance. Offensively you could've tried a front quarter shot or tried to E fight him seeing as you saw him long distance and you had some alt.

geistx · « **Reply #11 on:** September 22, 2001, 01:28:00 PM »

Wasn't there something on one of the other posts that said something like the La-7's WEP goes out above 8k? Is that true?

dtango · « **Reply #12 on:** September 22, 2001, 08:35:00 PM »

If I'm not mistaken the La-7 in real life didn't get any advantage from it's blower above 10K.

The La-7 is in my opinion an extremely tough a/c to fight. It has some incredible characteristics working for it: it has an incredible Thrust/Weight ratio- (1600 HP, 1800 HP WEP) vs. something like a max weight of 8000 lbs. Compare that to say a P-51D (1490 HP, 1650HP WEP) vs. 10,000 lbs. The T/W ratio explains some of it's incredible E retention capabilities. On top of that the La-7 has a a stall speed of around 90 MPH at sea level (not sure of the accuracy since I haven't flown the La-7 in awhile). This wing-loading reflects a superior instantaneous turn performance. It's sustained turn performance is really good as well since it's powerplant and low weight can offset a lot of induced drag in a turn. Add its high sustained airspeed and you have a a/c that can actually angles fight but extend away easily as well.

Amon- I fly primarily the P-51D so I can't offer any comments from experience on fighting the La-7 in a F4U-1D. In the P51D, one of my tactics is to stay only in engagements at very high speeds with the La-7 where I can even out any turn advantage of the La-7 has over my P-51D. I also avoid any sustained turning fights with them and try to conserve my E as much as possible with low g a/c controls.

The La-7 retains E pretty well so that's another characteristic you might exploit in a defensive situation. Instead of a pure zero-g extend you might have also tried going level and letting him close and then perform a hard break, scissor, or rolling scissor to force an overshoot since you'll bleed E much faster than the La-7 will.

Tango

412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[ 09-22-2001: Message edited by: dtango ]

Spatula · « **Reply #13 on:** September 23, 2001, 05:02:00 AM »

If im reading your oringal post correctly, you never noticed the la7 untill you started your zoom climb out of the initial attack. Meaning you cant possibly know its initial E state when you first saw it. I've been caught out by cunning pilots (funked) who start off high dive into a fray at very high speeds and you havent noticed what they're doing until you see them 3.5 off your 6 following you up in your zoom and shooting you off your perch.

You cant assume uberness because it did something you didnt expect. In this case it probably meant you under-estimated its intial E by assuming it was co-e with your original targets. That can be fatal.

the la7 is a damn monster as well, pays to be very carefull of them indeed.

Am0n · « **Reply #14 on:** September 24, 2001, 07:28:00 AM »

Thx for the input guys.

I had good learning experience with the F4 this weekend, the great part was that i was not flying it, a well trained enemy was. In the 3 battles we had Rocket unknowingly showed me how to fly that monster like i never knew possible. I was flying a 205 and he whooped me good, the last fight i took off in my trusty f4 and seemingly done better but none the less fell to his 50 cals.

One thing i noted is that the f4 is a hi-yo yo deamon, very good at it indeed if you enter the it at high speeds. You guys probably all ready knew of this but ive only played for less than a month and have never touched a flight sim prior to this so this is all new to me. I bagged a few spits/109s at low alt last night in a large scale confrintation when they tried to out turn me, i just nosed straight up and ruddered down behind them going much faster then them.

Another thing that i noted was the faster you go in the f4 the sharper it turns, to a point of course. I showed a 109 the truth of that in a high speed chase with him persuing me, around 400-450 mph with him on my six i started a gradual climb and quickly turned it full stick and ive never seen that AC change directions so fast, i ended up going directly away from him at a reltivy high speed, with much more alt. i lost him with out a doubt.

I guess the trick to turning it fast is to not just pull it to the fullest extent instantly but to gradualy get it there in a slow continuos motion. (hey im new dont laugh =] )

I should thank Rocket, i had almost given up on the F4. Thanks for opening my eyes to a new playing field.

On the LA7 topic, i caught one the other night fresh off the run way i was straffing the field, his wheels just lifted off as i Boomed in from medium/high to hit him, i got a snap shot but he made a ACM and came out on my six, i was zooming away at this point, and he CAUGHT up to me! fresh off the ground. I was able to evade him and my budy cleared my six, but that is just nuts to witness such a thing.