Students Killed in school shooting...

[Toad]

Originally posted by Skydancer
Take away the guns and you take away a large cause of death.

[/b]

Take away cars and you take away the LARGEST cause of death (by wide margin). In the US, homicide by firearm is somewhere down past #15 or so as a cause of death. Cars, OTOH are the #1 cause, age 3-33.

Guns have no other purpose than to kill other people Its what they were origionaly invented for fer chrissakes!

Over here we have shotguns and some hunting weapons. Fine no problem with that. Went Shooting last weekend as it happens. For the first time. Clays only. Was good fun.

[/b]

Now re-read what you just wrote.  Seems you used a gun for a purpose other than killing people? And you had fun doing so?

You realize how intelligent that statement makes you look, right?

Now cue the NRA men telling  me a Glock or a semi automatic is for sport shooting.

[/b]

I've got a Glock. I sport shoot with it. I'm in the NRA. Now... what point of yours does that prove, exactly? Other than YOU have never shot a Glock for sporting purposes? I have; it's as much fun as shooting clays. Try a "bowling pin" shoot sometime.

I don't live in fear of crime. I live a happy non paranoid life. Aren't I lucky. Oh And I live in the UK in a major city.

[/b]

I don't live in fear of crime. I live a happy non-paranoid life. Aren't I lucky. Oh And I live in the US, in the edge of a major city.

You never know you might actualy realise what real freedom is.

[/b]

Basically it's more what freedom is not. For example, your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins. Otherwise, you're free to swing your arm anyway, anywhere and anytime you like.

Think about it.

[Airhead]

Originally posted by Toad


Take away cars and you take away the LARGEST cause of death (by wide margin). In the US, homicide by firearm is somewhere down past #15 or so as a cause of death. Cars, OTOH are the #1 cause, age 3-33.

 [/B]

Where are cigarettes on the list? They have to be responsible for more deaths than guns, why aren't cigarettes outlawed in GB??

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Toad
Firearms have no use? Did you really say that?

Or did you mean firearms have no use that you personally consider essential?

Cars have many uses. One of them is recreational, just like firearms.

Cars are the leading cause of death in the US in the 3-33 age group.

The LEADING cause of death. Yet no one here seems to feel a need to deal with that. It's sillly to admit that cars kill tens of thousands more than guns and no one wants to talk about it.

I'm sorry toad, I didn't realize the USA had done away with all its road laws, like drunk drivers, speed limits etc. OH whats thats? You still have those LAWS? Oh? Your government IS dealing with it.

Firearms uses versus automobile uses. Hmnmm

Firearms: primary purpose is to kill;
Automobiles: primary purpose is to transport.

Automobiles: withdraw use... and what happens. Commerce grinds to a halt. Kids can't go to school. Ambulances can save people. In fact withdrawing the use of automobiles would probably cause in increased number of deaths.  So automobiles while creating their own level of deaths offset that by the contribution they make in saving lives....

Firearms: withdraw access to the general public and what happens... well in any "western" country but the USA you will probably save lives (and I am serious, I could see the crims having a field day in the US if this happened).

[Nash]

Hey! Will you guys shut up for TWO SECONDS?!!!






Okay...


Continue.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Airhead
Where are cigarettes on the list? They have to be responsible for more deaths than guns, why aren't cigarettes outlawed in GB??

Primarily cigarettes only have the victim as the smoker. The only other victims are second hand smoke breathers and the strain on the health system. Most goverments have dealt with this by taxing smokers to offset the cost to any health system, and in some countries the places you can smoke is restricted to protect the freedom of those who don't smoke from having to inhale that crap.

So, if you're happy with the fact that governments ARE dealing with cigarettes shall we get the ball rolling on firearms?

[Dune]

As always, the rush is to cure the symptom, not the disease.  Why did this kid do this?  What were the signs?  How many were ignored?  What did the fact his father had committed suicide and that his mom was in a home because of brain injuries from a car accident play in it?  How about the fact this was on a reservation?  Was the school underfunded and there wasn't enough people around to notice?  What type of parents were his grandparents?  Were they able to see the signs and what did they do about it?

There are a thousand questions to be asked before we even get to "guns".  But those wont be asked.  And they wont be answered.  So the next kid might shoot up a school.  Or he will just off himself and it will never be reported.  And nobody gives a **** other than that it suits their beliefs on some issue like gun control.

Concentrate on the kid and leave my guns alone.  Figure out how better to treat and raise kids and he could have a mini-gun in his house and nobody is worse off.  The problem isn't the gun, it's the kid.  

If he just offs himself no one cares.  Perhaps if we have more of these, someone will start looking at the root cause of it, rather than the guns.  Which is the same as saying, let him kill himself (as long as it's with something other than a gun), just don't make it a scene that we all have to take notice of.  Becuase if you force us to look at the situation, we'll just have to ignore the point and make a bunch of noise about something that's NOT THE ****ING POINT.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Vulcan
I'm sorry toad, I didn't realize the USA had done away with all its road laws, like drunk drivers, speed limits etc. OH whats thats? You still have those LAWS? Oh? Your government IS dealing with it.

[/b]

Oh, indeed. We have all those laws and more, MANY more. In fact, they keep adding all sorts of laws.

To no avail. Despite all the legislation and regulation, transportation deaths continue to reign at the top of the list for cause of death.

So is my government dealing with it? Yes. Very unsuccessfully.

It ought to be a lesson for those who continue to think restricting the inanimate object will some how control a problem caused by the human.

Originally posted by Vulcan
Firearms uses versus automobile uses. Hmnmm

Firearms: primary purpose is to kill;
Automobiles: primary purpose is to transport.

[/b]

Of what significance at all is "primary purpose"? Would you make the case, that if a golf club was the leading weapon used in homicides, that golf clubs shouldn't be restricted because their "primary purpose is not to kill, it's recreation"?

The fact is autos kill something like 4 or 5 times as many people as firearms every year.

Originally posted by Vulcan
Automobiles: withdraw use... and what happens.

[/b]

Withdraw use? Did you withdraw use of firearms from your police or military? No, you restricted their use by the general population.

And so, if one REALLY cares about stopping the slaughter, you folks should be crying out for restricting the use of the tool that kills 4X as many people as firearms.

Only the police, military, medical and mass transit folks....properly trained and licensed to use these dangerous forms of transport... should be allowed free use of them.

Either eliminate them for the rest of the unwashed public and substitute mass transit (over a suitable timeframe, of course) OR restrict civilian autos to no more than 25 mph top speed and a 0-60 time of 25 seconds. That should be enough to match the skills and reaction time of the average driver and keep him out of trouble.  I'm certain this will save THOUSANDS of lives.


But..... no.... since you guys like your fast cars, like racing down the highway, like not having to utilize mass transit.... since restricting the car would impact YOUR desired lifestyle... cars simply cannot be restricted. In fact, discussing restrictions on the tool that kills 4X more than firearms is silly.

[bustr]

Vulcan,

You have the benifit of living on an Island that has strick imigration rules. I don't think you have the minority inflated crime rates that much of the industrialised world is experiencing. I suspect England with it's current rates of legal and ilegal immigration is seeing cities like London starting to have the flavor of our Detroit. Remember that England is usually a few years behind the US in social trends, and England seems to have no plans to stop 3rd world immigration.

Norway and Sweden have seen an increase in reported rapes by minorities from 1995 to present of 200+ up to nearly 500 per year. The source is 2nd and 3rd generation unemployed youths 15-27. Unemployment for minorities in the EU is 40-50%.

US crime rates show the highest amongst minority youths 15-27. 40% of rapes in the US are commited by minorities.  Minority murders are higher than those by whites, but whites are 63% of the population here. As baby boomers world wide begin to get old and retire, they will become the targets of these youths because of their age and ease of over powering. In the next 10 years the US will see the beginings of 70million 55-65 start leaving the work force. UK and the EU will see a similare trend. There will not be enough police to go around, and last I checked the police are not required by law or any constitution state or federal to protect citizens in the US.

You are not going to change the life styles of these criminals who will be waiting in the wings as we baby boomers retire. The baby boomers will not be a physical match for 15-27 year olds. So what do we do? Die for your fantasy visions of utopia? I think you are much younger than I and so older age and the down sides that come with it are not a factor in your world view.

But then you live in NZ and most of this is academic for you.

[Siaf__csf]

We can make a deal. I agree to live without a firearm if Toad loses his cars at the same time as they're directly comparable.

[Yeager2]

America sucks for many small reasons,  but it doesn't have anything to do with the "country" itself.

3 options:

1.) Normal kid (no mental problems) + supportive and carring family + morals = Good

2.) Normal Kid ( No mental problems ) + No supportive or carrying family, without morals / values = Possiblity for a bad kid.

3.) Mentally unstable kid + ( caring ) / (uncarring) family = :unknown ( the kid could be crazy, or good

Problem:

America is filled with people who do not give a cheese.. ( I am speaking in general and obviously this doesn't apply to the few good parents left in the country)

Solution:  
Take care of your damn kids, and make your family work.

[Skydancer]

Yes I can live without the Guns but I think a Car is a tad more usefull, as Siaf rightly points out. What a ridiculous argument comparing the two.

As for cigarettes well you can't smoke in most buildings, Inc Pubs clubs soon. They are taxed way high in this country so cost a bomb. Getting on for £5-00 for a pack of 20. Id say thats pretty regulated.

Anyhow I'd enjoy watching all you gun guys walking everywhere while I drove past. Mind you you'd probably end up so frustrated that you'd lose it and shoot me!

[beet1e]

Notice that I still haven't said that guns should be banned in the US! But all this crap about it not being the guns' fault because guns are "inanimate objects" brings new meaning to "obtuse". The fact is that while guns are safe on their own, and only marginally less safe in law abiding, competent hands, guns change nutjobs into much more dangerous nutjobs. As I have said (about 500 times actually, but some readers are slow to learn) a gun crime requires TWO ingredients. 1) a loaded gun; 2) the crim/nutjob holding it. America is full of nutters, and you can't legislate against them. So the only answer is to make damn sure they don't get their hands on a gun. What's open to discussion is how that should be achieved. Simply saying that the guns themselves are not to blame is NOT the answer.

Originally posted by bustr
Though Vermont's gun carry law is very simple. There is none. Just put your peice in your pocket and go about your business. Vermont has a very low rate of crime compaired to the rest of the US.

Bustr, in your own way, you are comparing apples and oranges. It's a well established fact that the majority of crime occurs in large cities, with all the social problems that shuckins described, further up^. I've been to Vermont. It's a lovely state with nice countryside, good homes, and I would hazard a guess that there is a higher proportion of two-parent families than say the Watts district of Los Angeles, or Washington DC. The largest city in Vermont is Burlington, a city with fewer than 40,000 people and less than 1000 blacks, so no ghetto problems which are the scourge of cities like Los Angeles. As yet, Vermont has not needed to legislate against guns, just as Britain hadn't 100 years ago. You speak of Vermont people putting their piece in their pocket as they go about their daily business. I bet you most of them don't. Of course, the NRA would be quick to draw one of its false parallels - that the low crime rate is directly linked to the absence of gun control law, and at the same time completely ignore all other factors.

Vermont data, 2000 census

But let's look at the rest of the country, and how the US lawmakers are addressing the guns issue. I think we agree that the big cities are the crime hotspots. More guns = less crime? It's funny how three of the states which do not allow carriage of concealed weapons are the states in which America's three largest cities are located. And (according to the NRA website, so it may well be false) Washington DC - a crime hotspot with a huge ghetto problem - does not allow its residents to arm themselves at home for self defence! More guns = less crime: Tell that to the US lawmakers then.

[Thrawn]

Airhead was right, put them all on ignore.  This has gotten beyond stupid.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by bustr
Vulcan,

You have the benifit of living on an Island that has strick imigration rules. I don't think you have the minority inflated crime rates that much of the industrialised world is experiencing.

....

But then you live in NZ and most of this is academic for you.

Says who? We have a very high influx of refugees from the Middle East, Africa and Asia. We have one of the highest densities of pacific islanders in the Southern Hemisphere in Auckland. Pacific Islanders follow the "african american" culture very closely, luckily for us they can't easily get their hands on firearms to complete the picture.

Funnily enough most of our gang-related gun crimes occur in rural areas where firearms are naturally more prolific.

[Skydancer]

Hey Thrawn. Is that official policy? Don't listen to or read anything that might challenge your tiny little limited view of the world? Come on mate. Lighten up. Read learn choose to disregard if you wish. But what is the point of limiting a free and sometimes zany exchange of ideas. This BBs would be ultra ultra dull if it was just full of people patting each other on the back and agreeing with each other!