Author Topic: Misterious 190 climb angle  (Read 1463 times)

Offline Kweassa

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2005, 09:36:16 PM »
"Hundert neuns" and "hundert neunzigs".

 Blasted Deutsche Sprachen! :D

Offline CAP1

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2005, 11:22:48 PM »
hey guys.....i haven't been in the arenas yet, but it sounds like you're confusing best rate of climb(VX) with best angle of climb(VY)
if the FW is boom n zoomin, then there's no way you're gonna climb with him...he was probably at VNE(never exceed speed) when he took his shot, thus will climb like a homesick angel.

If you want to compare them off the ground, or from level flight, best angle of climb(VY) will give you the best alt. gain in the shortest time period. Best  rate of climb(VX) will give you the best alt gain in the shortest distance. This will also result in a lower speed and higher angle of attack during the climb.
Or is it the other way around? nuts!! wish i had my POH handy.

anyway, hope this helps!!!!
john
ingame 1LTCAP
80th FS "Headhunters"
S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)

Offline Glasses

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2005, 01:26:36 PM »
Thing is in AH the 190 V speeds are out of whack :D

Offline hitech

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2005, 01:31:20 PM »
CAP1: you have your VX VY backwards.

Offline Pongo

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2005, 01:46:11 PM »
Where as spit IX pilots reportedly initiated a tight climbing spiral that they thought no german plane could follow.

Offline TDeacon

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2005, 10:40:49 PM »
Not sure I understand this climb angle thing...

In AH, if you are zooming, you can climb at any angle until you stall.  So it seems to me, in the zoom, it all depends on who can zoom longer, not angle.  This would appear to be primarily a function of energy state, rather than plane characteristics.  

Again, in AH, in sustained climb, being able to climb at a steeper angle in sustained climb seems tactically useless, unless the other guy can no longer zoom, and is in sustained climb also.  Even then, he would need to be basically directly under you at the time, for this to be to your advantage.  If he was under with some lateral displacement, he might still be able to get off a shot.

Arranging for this favorable condition to occur in a dogfight would appear to be difficult, given all the variables involved (energy state, etc.).
« Last Edit: March 24, 2005, 10:47:37 PM by TDeacon »

Offline CAP1

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2005, 11:37:03 PM »
ok....imagine you and your wingman(you DO always fly with a wingman, right?) are cruising along at 18,000 ft. You happen to see an aircraft at your 2 low.......about 3 miles out, on a heading that'll take him directly past your 6. You both turn to intercept his flightpath, noticing that he's approx. 8,000 below you. Now a 1/2 mile out you lower your nose as you continue your turn into him. He has only 2 options........dive away, hoping to outrun you(although you're already near VNE), or attempt to climb directly at you making himself a harder target. Or assume in this instance, he doesn't even see you till you're almost in firing range. As you're about to squeeze the trigger, he sees you, and breaks right hard, causing you to overshoot. No problem though....you gently pull back on the stick, raising your nose to about 45 deg above the horizon. Your intended victem sees this and tries to follow you. Now comes the problem. YOU were doing....ooo..sayyy.....400 KIAS when you puled up. Victem was cruising at 295 KIAS. You have TONS of stored energy from the dive in the form of your speed. Victem has nothing...he firewalls the throttle trying to keep with you, but can't. When he stalls trying to maintain the climb, either you or your wingman now have an easy target. In this scenario, its a matter of who's faster at the outset.
 Don't forget......Richtofen didn't score 82 kills in dogfights...Eric Hartman didn't score 352 kills in dogfights......they both waited, picked their targets, dove in, shot, climbed to safety. Richtofen died when he broke his own rule, and followed a sopwith down low, got disoriented, and was shot down by ground fire.
 Hartman lived through the war, and only died sometime in the 90's. HE didn't break his rule.

Sorry for the long post, but i hope this helps yas a little bit?

john
ingame 1LTCAP
80th FS "Headhunters"
S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)

Offline TDeacon

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2005, 09:03:40 AM »
CAP1/John, what does your explanation have to do with angle of climb???

What you are describing is an attacker with excess energy, who is therefore able to out-zoom the defender (see my 2nd paragraph, above).  

BTW, the topic being discussed has nothing to do with multi-plane engagements or wingmen.  It has to do with a hypothesized inherent advantage due to angle of climb, presumably in a sustained climb, rather than zoom as in your example.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2005, 09:08:16 AM by TDeacon »

Offline HoHun

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2005, 07:22:27 PM »
Hi Deacon,

>CAP1/John, what does your explanation have to do with angle of climb???

I'd say it points out that the defender unaware of the energy status of an attacker would get the impression of the (zooming) attacker being able to climb at a steeper angle.

That's the only possible explanation for the effect Mando described. A Fw 190A just can't climb any steeper than a P-51D in a sustained climb.

You get a steep climb at low speeds, and the Fw 190A doesn't have a particularly low stall speed.

>What you are describing is an attacker with excess energy, who is therefore able to out-zoom the defender (see my 2nd paragraph, above).  

Exactly :-)

>>>In AH, if you are zooming, you can climb at any angle until you stall.

Hm, if you keep the angle of attack below the stalling angle, you'll reach the top of the zoom ballistically without any stall. Think of a wing-over :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline TDeacon

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2005, 10:23:52 PM »
Don't think Mando was discussing the consequences of having an energy advantage.  The dynamics of that are fairly obvious.  

Instead, I believe he is referring to often-printed quotations from the Air Fighting Development Unit report on a captured FW 190A from 1942, which says in part "... The climb of the Fw 190 is superior to that of the Spitfire VB at all heights.  The best speeds for climbing are approximately the same, but the angle of the Fw190 is considerably steeper.  Under maximum continuous climbing conditions... "  etc.  

This is obviously not referring to a zoom climb.  

Suggest you guys think before posting...

Offline CAP1

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2005, 10:48:59 PM »
Deacon........in the post previous to my last one, he DID mention "zooming". That was what i was replying to.

"Not sure I understand this climb angle thing...
In AH, if you are zooming, you can climb at any angle until you stall"

It seems HoHun has it though.....and BTW HoHun......how've ya been? I remember you from AW3 .

 Now if you're talking about sustained climb from an equal start(which won't happen in a fight), then it's simply a matter of more horsepower and a better designed aircraft, or possibly one being lighter than the other, etc.

 Anyway, sounded like you were mad about my reply......don't be....it wasn't supposed to do that.

john
ingame 1LTCAP
80th FS "Headhunters"
S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)

Offline MANDO

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2005, 04:46:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by CAP1
Now if you're talking about sustained climb from an equal start(which won't happen in a fight)


Lets suppose two aircrafts are turning near stall speed, the pursuer is close to a gun solution but the pursued starts to go nose up, the pursuer try to follow but its nose refuses to keep pointing up, so the pursuer level to gain a bit of speed but overshoots in the process.

BTW, this topic has no relation with zooming, may be it has more relation with weight/power ratio and max AOA.

Offline MANDO

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2005, 04:52:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by TDeacon
Instead, I believe he is referring to often-printed quotations from the Air Fighting Development Unit report on a captured FW 190A from 1942


Check also the second last post of o0Stream140o here related to P51s:

Messerschmitt 109 - myths and facts - article now out

Quoting from there:

"With the 190, it took a lot of punishment, had a high rate of roll, and could climb at a very steep attitude which if we followed brought us down too far below our best climb speed. Four of our guys reported such an incident in which the FW-190s were able to stay ahead of our birds and each time we would raise our nose to take a shot at them, our bird would stall. An interesting tactic."

Offline HoHun

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2005, 07:52:58 AM »
Hi Deacon,

>Suggest you guys think before posting...

I suggest you read my above posts, including the part on the calculations, and then apologize.

A Fw 190A won't outclimb a P-51D in the manner suggested by Mando, full stop.

Your Spitfire quote is for the best climb speed situation while Mando's initial post talks about lower-than-best climb speeds.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
« Last Edit: March 26, 2005, 08:01:52 AM by HoHun »

Offline HoHun

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2005, 07:56:03 AM »
Hi Cap,

>It seems HoHun has it though.....and BTW HoHun......how've ya been? I remember you from AW3 .

Hey old warrior! :-) What was your callsign there?

(I have to admit that I'm pretty bad at remembering callsigns, though - I bet you'll embarrass me by telling me it was "CAP" :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)