Author Topic: Check this load of crap ...  (Read 1737 times)

Offline midnight Target

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15114
Check this load of crap ...
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2005, 07:44:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by weaselsan
Wasn't an opinion, it was a fact. Example " A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,  
the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. It couldn't be any clearer if you shoved it up their juditial behinds.


Maybe you should get yourself appopinted...

Quote
The 1939 case U.S. v. Miller is the only modern case in which the Supreme Court has addressed this issue. A unanimous Court ruled that the Second Amendment must be interpreted as intending to guarantee the states' rights to maintain and train a militia. "In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a shotgun having a barrel of less than 18 inches in length at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument," the Court said. In subsequent years, the Court has refused to address the issue. It routinely denies cert. to almost all Second Amendment cases. In 1983, for example, it let stand a 7th Circuit decision upholding an ordinance in Morton Grove, Illinois, which banned possession of handguns within its borders. The case, Quilici v. Morton Grove 695 F.2d 261 (7th Cir. 1982), cert. denied 464 U.S. 863 (1983), is considered by many to be the most important modern gun control

Offline bustr

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12436
Check this load of crap ...
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2005, 08:16:43 PM »
In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a “shotgun having a barrel of less that eighteen inches in length” at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument.  Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that is use could contribute to the common defense. Aymette v. State, 2 Humphreys (Tenn.) 154, 158.

The Constitution as originally adopted granted to the Congress power--“To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress.” With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such forces the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted and applied with that end in view.

The Militia which the States were expected to maintain and train is set in contrast with Troops which they were forbidden to keep without the consent of Congress. The sentiment at the time strongly disfavored standing armies; the common view was that adequate defense of country and laws could be secured through the Militia--civilians primarily, soldiers on occasion.

The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. “A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline.” And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.

Midnight why not post the whole of US vs Miller 1939 and not try to presuade your audience by shorting them on the information there of. I clipped the above from the first 3rd. The original ruleing says that a sawed off shotgun does not conform with the Military arms of the day, 1939, .45 auto pistols, 1903 springfeild rifles, 30-06 BAR automatic rifles. A sawed off shotgun is not protected by the 2nd amendmant because it would not be a wheapon of military use to the militia. The militia is still We the People. So what are the standard arms of our current military?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2005, 08:20:26 PM by bustr »
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
What else did it say in "miller"?
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2005, 08:33:47 PM »
Quote
US vs. Miller(1939):
          The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators.

These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. [/b]“A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline.”

And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.




I say they ought to bring it on and settle this once and forever.

The language they used was plain and simple. There was then and is now no doubt what they meant.

It's the lawyer's penchant for twisting the meaning of words into something entirely new that gives the only hope for the antis.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2005, 08:37:00 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Suave

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2950
Re: What else did it say in "miller"?
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2005, 09:30:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
I say they ought to bring it on and settle this once and forever.

The language they used was plain and simple. There was then and is now no doubt what they meant.

It's the lawyer's penchant for twisting the meaning of words into something entirely new that gives the only hope for the antis.
Define "is" please.

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
Check this load of crap ...
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2005, 01:05:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by weaselsan
Wasn't an opinion, it was a fact. Example " A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,  
the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. It couldn't be any clearer if you shoved it up their juditial behinds.


You must forgive me if I believe what the U.S. Supreme Court rules as Constitutional (or not) before I take your word on it. ;)
sand

Offline midnight Target

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15114
Check this load of crap ...
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2005, 08:29:24 AM »
bustr etal,

My only point in this is that there is more than a little doubt about the supposed constitutionally protected right of individuals in this Country to keep arms.

If we need to dig up 200 year old definitions of militia and compare those to rulings by courts in the 1930's then the issue is far from black and white.

I just wonder when the NRA and its lobby is gonna stop trying to lie to it's members.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Check this load of crap ...
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2005, 08:36:02 AM »
Maybe when the antis stop lying to everyone?

Like I said.. let's bring it to the court and decide it once and for all.. except we know what would happen if the antis lose, right? It wouldn't be "once and for all", they'd just attack from a new angle.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline midnight Target

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15114
Check this load of crap ...
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2005, 09:21:56 AM »
Oh come on Toad, you know you want to agree with me...give in... let the dark side wash over you.

What the heck are you doing up this early on a saturday? I'm working.

duh! nevermind... it's not early there.

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
Check this load of crap ...
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2005, 09:31:23 AM »
mt... your wife is saying that if we can prove that a weapon is useful in the forming of a militia then the SC will uhold the right to keep and bear it.

The example you have shown is a sawed off shotgun.   There were weapons banned by the federal governmet unless a person had a licence for them.   Ruby ridge is a good example of how badly this law can go.

now... both the SC and the german army were wrong on this one.  In WWI the U.S. issued it's troops "sawed off shotguns"  or "trench brooms"  the germans "who were useing gas warfare at the time" complained that the shotguns were against the convention and threatened to shoot any prisoner caught with one.. the Americans continued to issue the shotguns and said they would retaliate on german pow's if the germans made good their threat.

sawed off shotguns (really, just production shotguns with short barrels) have been used by the U.S. military ever since and it is possible for anyone to own one with a barrel shorter than 18" with the right licence... 18" barrels are legal and have no restrictions.

but... tell the little woman that I will be glad to put my name up for "able bodied American" miulitia if that will be what satisfies your idea of "the people" as it aplies to the second.

I don't think you want the bill of rights to be modified with some nebulous defenition of "the people" tho that means only "the people so long as the government controls them".   "The people" is used a lot more often than in the second.

lazs

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
Check this load of crap ...
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2005, 09:34:29 AM »
And toad... you are correct.. it is a never ending battle with the liberals and their husbands.

No matter how black and white it is written or even if it is an amendment.... the womanly nannies will allways be back to chip away at our rights.

The best thing that any gun owner today can do to keep his rights is to  join the NRA... the next best thing is... go buy another gun.

lazs

Offline midnight Target

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15114
Check this load of crap ...
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2005, 10:28:12 AM »
Sorry lazs, but you and your husband have completely missed the point.

The question isn't whether or not shotguns are useful to a militia. It is whether or not a MILITIA is necessary for the 2nd amendment to allow arms to be born. Miller obviously says YES.

Now if you want to be silly and claim yourself as part of a well regulated militia... than you should be allowed to own a bazooka and even nuclear weapons.

Even you don't want you to have nuclear weapons.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Check this load of crap ...
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2005, 10:33:49 AM »
Miller pointedly says

Quote
the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense


That'd be.... me.

AND Miller pointedly says

Quote
when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.


Means I have a right to supply myself with arms "of the common use at the time". That'd be small arms, personal weapons. If you doubt that, there's documentation on the web you should be able to find easily.

Now, as to "common use", I think you need only look at the arms of a regular infantryman in Iraq. M-16 derivative and semi-auto pistol at the minimum.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
Check this load of crap ...
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2005, 10:40:18 AM »
even the government can't store high explosives and nukes anywhere they want.  I agree that they should not be in residental areas by ordinary people..

who are, by the way, the "militia"... I don't have to call myself anything.  the second says that in order for me to respond and form a militia my right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

I would agree with the supreme court if they felt that nukes or explosives were too dangerous (out of my control) to allow me to own without severe restrictions... private companies have built nuclear power plants tho under restrictions.

Now... it seems that you are really saying here that the constitution is outdated and needs to be changed.  I disagree with that and will fight to keep it.

You can't make a case that "the people" means anything other than what it means in the rest of the constitution and it's amendments tho.

The department of justices lengthy study (about 400 pages) competed last year says exactly that.   "the people" is exactly what it says.   Everyone.  

lazs

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
Check this load of crap ...
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2005, 10:41:36 AM »
toad... you might find a short barreled shotgun in iraq being weilded by a U.S. soldier too.

lazs

Offline Shuckins

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3412
Check this load of crap ...
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2005, 10:48:37 AM »
The Founding Fathers recognized all of the First Ten Amendments as being safeguards of individual rights and liberties.  

If I may refute your point MT, why would they place the right to bear arms so prominently near the top of that list of individual rights?  Are we to believe that the Second Amendment, blessings and praise be upon it, is the ONLY ONE of the first ten amendments that DOES NOT REFER to individual rights?  Could it be that they really meant what they said in the articles, essays, and personal letters during the debate over the passage of the Constitution about an armed citizenry being the best safeguard of liberty?

Careful now with your response.  These were stand-up, take charge, handle-your-own-problems type of guys.  The very notion of a "passive" citizenry that depended totally on the government for its security would have been silly and repugnant to them.

The armed militias to which they referred in the second amendment were groups like the minutemen, which every state organized before and during the Revolution as a defense of said state.  The Founders saw these groups as being a safeguard against the development of a tyrannical national government.  They had just fought a war to eject tyranny from American shores.

They recognized that the individual is responsible for his own security, and disaster awaited a citizenry that ceded that right to a central government.  Modern history is rife with examples of unarmed citizens being slaughtered by their own governments.  The list of such examples is far too lengthy to recite here.

If we have a problem in our "modern" society with gun-violence it is because citizens no longer accept responsibility for their own security, or for anything that they do for that matter, whether it is child-rearing or how we relate to and treat our neighbors.