Why are "they" celebrating?

[Sandman]

It's not often that I agree with Toad. I think that this is one of those times. His point has merit. He may not be what we want to hear but that doesn't diminish the truth of it.

As for Iraq... Of course they celebrated. Their country is besieged. Our operations in Iraq haven't had U.N. sanction for years. Hey... maybe we do have just cause, but it's arguable.

There is no argument with regard to this week's attacks on us. We have the power and the sanction to act unilaterally. No one will question it.

[Octavius]

I say take this terrorist tree out by its roots

 

Originally posted by mrfish:


i agree with your sentiment on cutting terrorism at the root 100%, but you are using a lesson from the dhammapada to justify vengence and that is way out of context.

it's intended as a lesson about the great buddhist tenet of 'suffering' and extholing the virtues of self control.

it's not at all about killing people to prevent them from causing more harm. it's not your opinion that bugs me, just your use of the dhammapada to back it up - it really goes against those lessons.

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]

Fix the problem at the root of the cause is the best way to fix anything.  It could be something so small as what someone had for breakfast one particular morning.  mrfish, I believe "take the terrorists out" as in actually murdering and destroying everything is not justified.  

"Fact of the matter is we're dealing primarily with BARBARIANS. We're interfering in the Sovereign Affairs of Barbarian nations. Fools on a more foolish mission."  - Toad.  This is biased of course, but I agree 100% nonetheless.  You need to study their culture, their history, their religion to absolutely understand them.  Their view of the world is completely opposite to the 'western' point of view.  Too many people from the westwern point of view (ie, US citizen, duh   :)hehe) are uneducated!  They simply do not know much about them at all.  They become filled with rage and just want to release it via death and destruction.  And it's the EXACT same thing the other way around!  We simply do not understand eachother.  They seem barbaric and foolish to us.  We seem tyranical and arrogant to them.  It works both ways.  If we want to resolve something, we need to educate BOTH sides.  Educate as in take a history course.  Their behavior dates back to.. what is it.. the 7th century when the Koran was written?  THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK.. PLEASE.  That should be "EDUCATE YOURSELF BEFORE YOU SPEAK.. PLEASE."  I can spot an uneducated person with foggy historical knowledge the moment they make a stupid comment.  When you make assumptions and put them in stupid posts, you distort the true root and meaning of the thread.  Hey, I sure as hell don't know everything, but it couldn't hurt to learn about some history and cultural backrounds of these people!  
That is the root of the problem!!  Thank you.

Oct out!!

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Octavius ]

[mrfish]

yeah oct there's a few good points there - i'm well read in buddhist ideas but shamefully unenlightened when it comes to practice.

the real solution would be for each human to address the inherent suffering in "themselves" which would of course, eliminate the need for people to bring suffering to others.

"themselves" is in quotes to express irony, because the act of drawing a distinction between yourself and everything else is the very act that leads to the trap of ego fulfillment and an unenlightened worldview and....blah....blah blah...blah  

the problem is, right now the only thing i can think about is payback no matter how much i try to forgive them. i'd love to be able rise above the need for vengence, but i still want to see someone pay in blood. i just can't seem to turn that instinct off just now....

[Toad]

Somehow I doubt that further study of their history, culture and religion is going to to make their barbarism any more acceptable or understandable to me.

[Octavius]

I simply mean their misunderstanding of our views (vice versa) could be the cause of their barbarism.  I hope you like that better than my previous post.  

oct out.

[Toad]

No, I'm not buying that one either.

Their Barbarism against us... maybe.

How do you explain their Barbarism against other non-US entities?

How do you explain their Barbarism against fellow countrymen of a different religion? (Check Sudan to see what I'm referring to.)

[Voss]

I don't really understand 'their' world completely, either. It seems to me that these guys want everything to remain as it was in the 7th Century. To them any deviation from the 7th Century seems evil?

It looks as if they view the way the U.S. goes about life as follows. We advertise jeans by showing a womans rear end, panty hose with hosed legs, perfume with a naked nape, and diet aids with bare bellies. Hollywood glamorizes murder, robbery, adultery, blasphemy, and every other broken commandment they can put on film. Our businesses, that are the first to 'invade' foreign soil, are the very companies to finance these films and yes Capitalism is seen as a crime to them. This is just the bare surface of the crime, to them it seems.

'They' do not seem to have a need to see into us, to understand us, to learn our history. Just as the Vietnamese could not conceive of tomorrow, those in the Middle East cannot conceive of learning our ways, because to do so would violate their ways and actually be a crime against their religion.

If, I have any inkling of 'them,' and in order to win this engagement, we will literally have to do as Sun Tzu suggested and allow the terrain to weary our opponents. Retreat by pulling out our commerce, by withdrawing support and influence, by removing our technologies, and by allowing none of our culture in.

By allowing them to think they have won a major defeat, they will never see their demise coming.

I can see that the seed to their defeat has already been planted. They are dependant upon us, as our technologies have created important medicines and our farms vital foods. Take it all away and they will be happy; at first. I bet it all caves in within a decade and the majority will then begin to clamor for the U.S. to return.

I don't just mean Afghanistan, either. I mean everything from Western Egypt to Eastern Pakistan. Pull out support, communications, energy, medicine, and transpportation. Deny them every convenience of the Western World, and every access to the outside. Take it all away!

I don't see it happening, but it would be an interesting approach.

[Eagler]

Voss
Good point but the void we created by pulling out will then be filled by China, Russia, India or Pakistan to name a few. Israel would be crushed eventually. There goes any influence of democracy in the region.

[Voss]

Yeah, I know. I would like to annex Afghanistan, but I think it not worth the effort. We need ownership of one of the oil fields in the region. Otherwise, we are going to have to put up with problems like this as time goes on. Isolationism won't work, because as you point out someone else will fill the void. The problem with a permanent presence, though, is that it will be the most obvious target.

[batdog]

Toad <S>... you post was very well thought out and made good sense. I can agree with much of it.

xBAT