Author Topic: The Death Penalty, for it or against it (Read 3263 times)

hawker238 · « **Reply #45 on:** April 19, 2005, 08:32:45 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2

Who knows how many great people have been aborted... how many mistakes does assisted suicide make?

lazs

Who knows how many little Hitlers have been aborted?

oboe · « **Reply #46 on:** April 19, 2005, 08:38:27 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
...most who don't favor the death penalty also favor both abortion and assisted suicide... Who knows how many great people have been aborted... how many mistakes does assisted suicide make?

but... in those cases.... is is ok to not be 100% certain? those lives are somehow.... different? liberals make me puke.

lazs

Where'd you get that impression? My own impression along those lines is that most of those who are against abortion also favor the death penalty. For example, Pres. Bush.

I know of no one who favors abortion. I only know of those who are against abortion, and those who favor a woman's right to chose for herself.

lazs2 · « **Reply #47 on:** April 19, 2005, 08:54:18 AM »

hawker... I don't know... who knows how many little hitlers serial killers take out for us? by your logic we should just take out machine guns and randomly spray mall crowds once in a while in the hope of maybe killing a future hitler.

oboe we are saying the same thing. Most who favor the death penalty do so as a punishment for the guilty and as a form of deterent... they don't favor abortion or assisted suicide because they feel it is the killing of innocent and helpless.

"A womans right to chose for herself"? when does that end? if she gives the ok is it allright to kill her son on death row?

how is abortion and a womans right to choose for herself any different?

lazs

Toad · « **Reply #48 on:** April 19, 2005, 09:24:11 AM »

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Originally posted by oboe
and those who favor a woman's right to chose for herself.

Help me out here Oboe; there's something I always wondered about.

In this abortion discussion, before sperm meets egg, there can obviously be no human life. Just as obviously, after the doc cuts the umbilical cord and slaps the newborn on the butt, there is human life.

Now just exactly where on the roughly nine month continuum going from a fertilized egg to the doctor's slap on the butt does the "divine spark" enter this life form? When exactly does the transition to "human being" occur?

Thanks in advance.

oboe · « **Reply #49 on:** April 19, 2005, 10:31:54 AM »

I can't answer your question, Toad, and hope I haven't given the impression I think of myself as a know-it-all, because I'm certainly not. Maybe its my writing style -- though I consciously try to salt my views with 'I think' and 'it seems to me' as often as I remember to.

My best attempt at an answer is to say its a gray area and that there are probably dozens of different answers depending on your background, religion, training, politics, etc. Why is it so important to define exactly when human life begins?

Personally I shy away from abortion discussions, because as a man, I just don't think its any of my business. I'm never going to be pregnant or face the pain or joy of birth. I wouldn't want a bunch of women arguing about and determining whether or not it was OK for me to get a vasectomy. I think it would be an interesting situation if all men would just shut up about it and see what a bunch of women decide.

Laz, abortion and the right to chose are different because if you have the right to chose - you have both options. Plenty of women with the right to chose an abortions would choose not to have them (as I assume all anti-abortion women are doing everyday - even though they are still legal, they choose not to have them) I'm not sure about any mother killing her son on death row - has that ever happened?

To me, the abortion issue is one where the conservative republicans and their politics of personal freedom and responsibility have completely dropped the ball, and suddenly favor government intrusion into people's lives. I always thought the Dems and Repubs positions on abortion should be exactly reversed, and then their positions would be more consistent with their overall positions on personal freedom vs govt controls.

It seems to me, anyway.

Mark Luper · « **Reply #50 on:** April 19, 2005, 11:08:37 AM »

Very much in favor of the death penalty. The more cruel the procedure, the better.

simshell · « **Reply #51 on:** April 19, 2005, 11:28:29 AM »

against it

Steve · « **Reply #52 on:** April 19, 2005, 12:49:35 PM »

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who says the death penalty is not a deterent?

Actually, I was taught in my CJ classes that public execution is the single biggest deterrent of capital crimes. Please do not ignore the importance of the word "public"

lazs2 · « **Reply #53 on:** April 19, 2005, 12:50:34 PM »

oboe.. I believe that toad asked you a very legit question on when abortion is murder... you said you didn't know yet...

you insist that abortion is simply a womans choice... the unborn human has no choice in your equation. You then blame conservatives for taking choice away?

seems that conservatives are protecting the most sacred of rights... the right to live.

my personal take is that once a fetus can survive without the mother then the mother has no right to murder it.

88 seems to think that all killing is murder... or at least the death penalty.. There are lots of cases where we as a people kill other people and it is sanctioned and we don't worry too much abourt the fine points of things like innocence or a possibility of a "mistake"

self defense, assisted suicide, war, abortion... all are seen to be viable use of deadly force and all are prone to high rates of killing innocent people to get the job done. None are "no longer needed" or archaic... they may be barbaric but.... we do em so.. by defenition... we are a barbaric people... let's stop pretending that the death penalty is special in our laundry list of people killing people.

lazs

GtoRA2 · « **Reply #54 on:** April 19, 2005, 12:54:02 PM »

Laz for President!

lazs2 · « **Reply #55 on:** April 19, 2005, 01:00:16 PM »

two GTO's (or hot rods of your choice) in every garage!

lazs

indy007 · « **Reply #56 on:** April 19, 2005, 01:10:46 PM »

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Originally posted by lazs2
two GTO's (or hot rods of your choice) in every garage!

lazs

got my vote on the first one. now you may even have a campaign donation.

Raider179 · « **Reply #57 on:** April 19, 2005, 01:24:54 PM »

Definitely for it. I have a question though, How come there are crimes that can be committed where you would be justified to use deadly force against the criminal but they dont get the death penalty for the crime? Rape and kidnapping come to mind.

Toad · « **Reply #58 on:** April 19, 2005, 01:57:57 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by oboe
Why is it so important to define exactly when human life begins?

Because killing a human being is a crime called murder?

Here, let me help you understand my question more fully.

Would you be in favor of ending the life of a full term baby that was apparently normal in all respects when it was half way out of the birth canal?

I suspect your answer is "no". Because that is a fully formed human being and it would be murder. You agree?

Now, obviously at SOME point between conception and delivery the fetus becomes human. Has too, right?

So, what is that point? At what point is it ok to kill it because it is not human and then it is suddenly NOT OK because it is human.

Just where is that point on the timeline?

oboe · « **Reply #59 on:** April 19, 2005, 02:10:51 PM »

Laz,

I'm not sure where Toad was going with that question - I viewed it as a trap to get me to answer an impossible question.

I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear, but I see the right to make the choice between two options as different from either of the options themselves. So abortion is not a woman's choice, abortion is one of the options in her choice.

But yes, the unborn human has no choice in my equation. But does the unborn human even have an independent will to exercise a choice? Or are you assuming all unborn humans would choose life (in a sense, you are making the identical choice for every unborn, and really then , that isn't even a choice anymore, is it?). What I'm suggesting is that perhaps its the mother's place to make whatever choices need to be made for her unborn, not yours or the government's.

btw your position seems very sensible to me, but how far along is that date? 6th month? 5th month? And do you mean survive on its own or with the aid of extreme measures?