Author Topic: Flaps, flaps, & flaps.  (Read 10603 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2005, 08:55:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Not like they had much of a choice. Without them they'd lawndart more often than not.



Those are dive flaps you are referring to.  I am referring to the Fowler (i.e. Combat/Maneuvering Flaps) and normal flaps used by the P-38.


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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2005, 08:57:19 PM »
I think he is referring to the fowler flaps.

Have you read Lockheeds instructions are their use?

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2005, 03:48:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
I think he is referring to the fowler flaps.

Have you read Lockheeds instructions are their use?

All the best,

Crumpp




Hmmm...to prevent "lawn darting" a P-38 pilot would use the dive flaps to aid in the dive recovery of the Lightning.  A pilot would not use the Fowler flaps to aid in pulling out of a dive since they could only be deployed at 250mph.  In a combat situation where the pilot needed some help in maneuvering, they'd use the Fowler flaps (also known as combat or maneuvering flaps) and their normal flaps.

You should watch the USAAC P-38 flight training film on Zeno's site, goes into wonderful detail on the flaps and their usage.


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Offline dtango

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2005, 04:38:09 PM »
Referring to Ack-Ack's post here's a drawing of the P-38 fowler flaps:



The 1st flap setting was known as the MANEUVER or COMBAT setting.

Here's a drawing regarding the dive recovery flaps on the P-38:



And finally here are two pics where you can see the fowler flaps and the dive recovery flaps on the P-38 (fowler flap on trailing edge of the wing, dive recovery flaps underside of the wing):





Referring to agent009's comment on the Mustang flaps - I thought that the maneuver flaps on the P-51 are pretty well known.  For reference-sake I'll try and post some info on it later when I have the time.

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Offline Ack-Ack

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2005, 05:04:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by agent 009

Hey ack ack, I met cofee today. he flew P-38 L. Had 51 missions over pacific. & was original founding member of P-38 society, or perhaps club is correct word. he lives 2 doors down from my sisters house. His full name is William Coffman as I recall.

He told me a little story bout Japanese flying US 4 engined planes.



You're one lucky guy to have been able to meet him.  I'd be at his house every day :)


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Offline GREENTENERAL

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Re: Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2005, 07:55:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by agent 009
D-9 had 5 preset flap positions, Oscar had butterfly flaps, & George had automatic flaps. Mustang pilots would "drop" flaps to increase turn.

Can someone elaborate on all these flap bits?


I think I saw that 5 presets info on a page written by someone on the Warbirds staff.  It was with a bunch of charts for all the planes in that game.  It may have been a typo.  I wish I had more detailed tech descriptions for all the a/c.

Offline Crumpp

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2005, 08:04:40 PM »
The FW-190D9 has three flap settings.

1.  Retracted

2. Take-Off <10 - 13 degrees>

3.  Landing <58-60 degrees>


All the best,

Crumpp

Offline GREENTENERAL

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2005, 08:20:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
The FW-190D9 has three flap settings.

1.  Retracted

2. Take-Off <10 - 13 degrees>

3.  Landing <58-60 degrees>


All the best,

Crumpp


Yeah, I figured that the 5 position thing was some typo, as I have not seen it anywhere else.

Offline GScholz

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« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2005, 08:31:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
I think he is referring to the fowler flaps.

Have you read Lockheeds instructions are their use?

All the best,

Crumpp


Well ... I was referring to the dive flaps, but what does Lockheed's instructions say abut flap usage?
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Offline agent 009

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2005, 12:53:32 AM »
Fowler flaps are cool. In Clostermanns book he mentioned the 190 pilots could select 15 degrees of flap which would enable the pilots to do lightning sharp turns. I think he mentioned the A-6 had redesigned wings too.

The best dogfight I ever read between a 190 & a Spit is in that book. A Canadian & a pilot named Graf, not to be confused with Hermann Graf. good stuff.

Offline Kweassa

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2005, 01:43:52 AM »
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P-38 pilots used flaps regularly in combat.


 Oh I don't doubt some did.

 However, looking at the larger picture, using flaps was not something one would want to do under normal circumstances since it commonly indicates a pilot entering a fight with higher risks than compared to a 'standard' type of team fighting doctrine.

 In a sense, it could be loosely considered that the more personal confidence a group of pilots feel, the more they would want to step out of the 'basic doctrines'.

 From such behaviors would legendary and spectacular pilots be born... who ironically, usually also have a tendency of meeting an untimely death during combat as well.

 It is interesting to note that almost all of the pilots in every airforces, that are known for their spectacular flying skills and unorthodox methods of combat, usually end up dead sooner or later.
 
 Wick(engaged multiple bandits recklessly)
 Marseilles(test flight accident, suspicions of tampering with the G-2 he was scheduled to fly in)
 Nowotny(chased down and shot down in a 262)
 Fadayev(engaged multiple Germans)
 McGuire(bad/reckless judgement).. all killed in combat.

 Galland was shot down and wounded a number of times, Bader and Gabreski ultimately became  POWs..(Gabreski, especially after attempting a dangerously low strafing) and etc etc.

 Famous pilots, famed for their enthusiasm towards personal flying skills and hot combat, usually end up dead. Ofcourse, that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with flap usage, however, I think it does show a tendency that when some people prefer the exotic over the basics, in the end the consequences catch up with you one way or another. And basically, flaps weren't for combat use, whether or not they were named 'combat flaps' or not.

Offline Naudet

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2005, 01:53:57 AM »
Agent009 could you give me the entire title of the book?

Offline agent 009

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2005, 01:54:26 AM »
Um, yes & no. Nishizawa died, but not through dangerous flying. Count Punski survived war. he flew into superior numbers often. Rudorrfer copied Marseills tactics & survived. Screwball Beurling survived war. Fonck & Bishop of WW1 survived. Marseille died not through wild flying, but oil smoke in cockpit.

Preddy was very agressive & used the scatter the flock tactic, ( flying staright into large formations of E/a ), & was shot down by friendly flak.

Offline agent 009

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2005, 01:55:46 AM »
Hey Naudet. book is called "The big show"

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2005, 02:34:23 AM »
The point is, agent, for every successful fighter pilot that becomes famous through aggressive flying, there are countless numbers of pilots that are shot down and killed due to taking unnecessary risks they could simply have avoided and played safe.

 Using and relying heavily on flaps during combat is to say relying on a device which was initially never meant for combat purposes in the first place. Removing your hand from HOTAS and constantly lowering and raisng the flaps is something a pilot really shouldn't do - this was an era where planes with regular maintenance would still meet freak accidents and malfunctions. Everytime a wing or squad launched for a daily mission, 3~4 planes would turn back home due to mechanical problems.

 For everything you rely on which you don't really have to, there comes another risk, and flaps are one of those risk factors. Even if they function well, the pilot himself might fail.. and unlike in the situations where one can simply hightail it out of there when things get messy, when you were using flaps you are low in speed and in a very dangerous situation.

 For the most part, most of the opposition the P-38s were facing in the PTO were at least 20~30mph slower than the P-38s at all alts. In a sense, with no derogatory intention towards the P-38 pilots of the war, they were in a machine which could just get out of tight spots by flat-out outpacing them, fighting against pilots who were poorly trained with no veterans to guide them because almost all of them died out since the great USN counter offensive of '42. The IJN/IJAAF produced a bit slow, but still formiddable planes until the war's end, and yet the USN/USMC Hellcats and Corsairs maintain a very high K/D ratio over those planes. Even the old Wildcats outscore the superior performing Zeros.

(And this is the reason why some of the PTO battles in the CT turn out quite differently, when there are good pilots flying for the IJAAF/IJN side as well)

 Better machines + Better pilots
 = Lot of opportunites to try more aggressive stuff


 But when there aren't such great conditions present, aggressive flying is flying with your one foot inside your coffin. There are numerous tales of how German aces got progressively more conservative and careful in their flying as the war went on. Mind you, that those guys are the ones who survived, not the 'hot-shots'.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2005, 02:45:27 AM by Kweassa »