The behemoth is due to fly tomorrow

[Habu]

Originally posted by GScholz
Sure, but that requires there are enough people that want to travel from Pittsburgh to Orleans to make the flight profitable. It would obviously work on many routes, but I think there will be plenty of passengers that still have to trickle together to a hub and fly out together, even in America. In Asia they'll even use the A380 as a local commuter plane.

The smart airlines with 787's will pick off the lucrative direct routes. If lots of people want to fly from one city to another due to factors like regular oilfield crew changes for example to major petroleum producers you may have a direct flight from Dallas to Jeddah for example. My flights into Nigeria were almost all oilfield crew. They all went through London. Imagine Dallas to Lagos direct.

Lots of Russians living in Toronto. Now you have a direct Moscow Toronto flight. Too small for a 380 put plenty of people for a 787.

Once all these high volume city to city routes are served direct imagine trying to convince someone to fly Toronto to London to Moscow instead of direct.

And with a 380 you may only have enough business for 2 flights a week. In a 787 you can have 4 flights a week. Easier to sell flights with more choice of departure dates than trying to fill one big flight per week.

[Habu]

Originally posted by spitfiremkv
I think we're missing the point here: the A380 is the largest civil airliner.Aside for the AN225, but how many of those are flying?!?!?
the A380 is a radical improvement over all current airlines.
Boein's latest model, the 787, although it has inovative features, is not the biggest, nor the fastest, nor the longest range airliner. It is touted as "20%" more efficient than comparable airlines , but that's pretty vague.
And...it hasn't flown yet.
The A380 is a historic plane marking a new era in transportation. Can you say the same thing about the 787?

I believe the lead in commercial aircraft design has been taken by Airbus.

The 787 has sold more planes than the airbus so far. In airlines 1% more efficient is huge. Really huge. 20% is like winning the Powerball.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Habu
How about I explain it a simpler way. You purchase a ticket on the airline flying the A380. It flys that plane from New York to London. You live in Chicago and want to go to Munich. That airline has to get you one a flight from Chicago to New York. Pay the crew fuel landing fees airplane cost etc for that seat. You are probably on a smaller less efficient plane. But the airline is incuring lots of costs for those seat miles.

Now you get on the super efficient Airbus and fly to London and that airline has incurred a very expensive landing fee as major hubs cost more to land at, then it has to fly you out of London (another major landing fee to get that plane into London) to Munich. Now the two feeder planes may be smaller but the airline has to pay the costs to get those seats from Chicago to New York and from  London to Munich. It costs much more to land at an airport and take off and continue to a destination than it does to overfly it and go to the same destination.

You have baggage handleing costs, infastructure costs, staff costs etc.

Now the Boeing airline loads up once in Chicago and then flys direct to Munich.

You tell me what will cost less per seat mile.

Scenarios involving America falter when trying to explore the viability of A380, because in America you have such a high concentration of airports and large number of routing permutations, so you need smaller planes and lots of them. It's a different story in SE Asia, where there are relatively few airports, and where the flights serve remote areas involving huge distances. Sorry to keep going back to SIA, but it is a perfectly good example! - their 59 cities served are spread half way around the world and involve five continents!!! The vast majority are more than 1000 miles from home base. That compares with hundreds of cities served by airlines in the USA alone, and many flights will be 500 miles or less.

[spitfiremkv]

Originally posted by Habu
The 787 has sold more planes than the airbus so far. In airlines 1% more efficient is huge. Really huge. 20% is like winning the Powerball.

overall effieciency will be proven only after the aircraft enters service with the airlines.
until then, it's just numbers.

[Fishu]

Supposedly "grown up" people fightning over the issue like kids.
An issue which doesn't have anything to do with them at all.
What the hell is wrong with you people...  without the air industry and the competition, we'd be still flying DC-3's and the world war II would been fought with biplanes.

[vorticon]

Originally posted by Fishu
without the air industry and the competition, we'd be still flying DC-3's

remember where you are, some people wouldnt mind that.

[Chairboy]

Of interest, there are still many DC-3s flying around the world.  I've read about DC-3s that have been fitted with turboprops so they can better fly in and out of high altitude airports in South America.

I think that's a pretty good sign of some solid engineering.

Edit: Some more info on turboprop DC-3s, including a 3-engine model.  http://www.air-and-space.com/conroy.htm

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by VWE
Daring? Boeing isn't being subsidised by the U.S. government either. Were not comparing apples to apples here. Also no major U.S. airline has orderd a single 380 and untill that trend is broken the 380 will not become a success.

Somehow I doubt this. It probably wouldn't take long to find the subsidies but I can't be assed looking, the US market is so heavily subsidised in all sorts of areas you keep getting hauled in front of the WTO for subsidy violations.

If you think the US is a free and open market you must be out of your mind.

[Habu]

Profit = sale price less cost of goods sold.

The 380 has huge development costs to cover. It is also made in a hodge podge of places then flown, trucked railed to the final assembly plant in France. Not just small items but things like fuselage sections. Not the most efficient manufacturing model.

I think Boeing is going to make more money.

[Fishu]

Originally posted by Habu
Not the most efficient manufacturing model.

I'm sure they have carefully calculated what is the best manufacturing model.
So has Boeing.

[Habu]

Originally posted by GScholz
It's the exact same manufacturing model that Boeing uses. Nothing is actually made at the huge Boeing plant, only assembled. Is that egg on your face?

So Boeing has to shut down Seattle everytime they truck a 747 fuselage that was made in Germany through town to the plant ?

[straffo]

Originally posted by GScholz
Btw. it doesn't cost Airbus anything that the authorities have to shut down a town now and then.

Plus no town was shut down in the past and none will be in the future.

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by straffo
Plus no town was shut down in the past and none will be in the future.

Pardon, Monsouir?

[straffo]

errrr ... look like they forgot to bring the fuselage of the A380 with them

[beet1e]

Like fishu, I can't see why this is being argued about, except that I do get a bit peeved when people say A380 can't succeed if it won't appeal to USA based airlines. ^

My view is that it will work well - for those airlines who have chosen it on the routes where they intend to operate it. When people are about to make a journey of 8000+ miles or 14000km lasting 15 hours, they're not thinking "Now, shall I get the 9am flight or would I be better waiting for the 9:45am flight?"

It's also going to help out here at LHR, where runway slots are saturated. That's why one in eight movements at LHR will be an A380 by 2016, and that does not surprise me in the least. Why send 10 planes to the same city when the job can be done with 5 A380s?

Someone posted the list of airlines who had placed orders, and not surprisingly, those based in Australia and Asia featured prominently. I have no doubt that they have done their market research, and will be able to fill every seat.

So who cares if a USA airline is going to make more money with a 7*7 in an entirely different market, half way around the world? Good luck to 'em. I don't see the need for a "mine is bigger than yours" pissing contest.