The behemoth is due to fly tomorrow

[Fishu]

Originally posted by bunch
A380 will carry the same number of passengers as 747, but they will all be much fatter

So it is indeed made for the american markets?

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Fishu
So it is indeed made for the american markets?

The American version will be the 840 seat configuration, converted to 300 seats and an onboard McDonald's franchise.

[Hangtime]

The fundamental difference between the two types is that Boeing has "conventional" controls, and Airbus uses fly-by-wire. According to a TV documentary I saw, the trend is a one way ticket towards the latter. (I think this is what rankles with the pro-Boeing/anti-Airbus guys) Thus the purists will argue that control is being taken away from the pilots. Some might argue that this is bad; those in favour might argue that 45% of all aircraft accidents are caused by pilot error as a means of justifying FBW.

The majority of "Airbus Incidents" relate directly to FBW..  tell me; if the cruise control system on your car failed to disengage and hand you back control of your throttle when you touched the brakes, would you consider that car 'safe'??

If a pilot grabs the stick and rams in more throttle; don't you think the freakin plane should respond accordingly?

Frankly, as long as there's a pilot, there should be no argument between the human interface and the computer as to who in hell is in command.... and thats why I'll take a Boeing any day over that furbish Airbus.

Cheers!

[straffo]

Originally posted by Hangtime
The majority of "Airbus Incidents" relate directly to FBW..  tell me; if the cruise control system on your car failed to disengage and hand you back control of your throttle when you touched the brakes, would you consider that car 'safe'??

hahem ... http://www.boursier.com/vals/all/feed.asp?id=888

Notice it's a French car made in EU ...

Look at the sky Ma ... another falling Airbus



BTW I don't think the FBW is the only cause

[SkyLab]

Boeing missed the boat big time.

[Chairboy]

Originally posted by Hangtime
The majority of "Airbus Incidents" relate directly to FBW..  tell me; if the cruise control system on your car failed to disengage and hand you back control of your throttle when you touched the brakes, would you consider that car 'safe'??

If a pilot grabs the stick and rams in more throttle; don't you think the freakin plane should respond accordingly?

I see that you have not read the actual conclusions about that wreck (presumably, you're talking about the one caught on video that does the low pass, then crashes into trees at the end of the runway).

Early speculation was that the FBW system didn't allow the pilot to throttle up, as you suggest.  What was really discovered was that the pilot overrode the FBW and throttled back to idle, not descent power.  As a result, when he rammed the throttle in, the turbine lag before the engines began producing thrust was just a little too long.  

The crash had nothing to do with the FBW 'not responding', that was what the pilot claimed when he was trying to avoid being chastised.  The actual investigation found him at fault for throttling back too far.

I suggest reading up more on the subject.

[Charon]

So it is indeed made for the american markets?

Apparently Europe isn't far behind in the passenger weight department, and Germany may have even taken back the lead it lost in the 1990s

Charon

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Hangtime
The majority of "Airbus Incidents" relate directly to FBW..  tell me; if the cruise control system on your car failed to disengage and hand you back control of your throttle when you touched the brakes, would you consider that car 'safe'??

If a pilot grabs the stick and rams in more throttle; don't you think the freakin plane should respond accordingly?

Frankly, as long as there's a pilot, there should be no argument between the human interface and the computer as to who in hell is in command.... and thats why I'll take a Boeing any day over that furbish Airbus.

Cheers!

Not saying you're wrong, HT. But if such a high proportion of Airbus incidents are related to the FBW system, then why is there an unrelenting trend away from conventional controls in favour of FBW? Do *they* really believe that the pilots must be protected from themselves, or are there other reasons?

 What the documentary I saw actually said was that once the changeover to FBW had been made, there would be no turning back.

We need to hear from Mr. Toad on this.

[mora]

Hangtime is clearly fishing with that ignorant statement, but I'll bite...

26 June 1988; Air France A320; near Mulhouse-Habsheim Airport, France: The aircraft crashed into trees during an air show maneuver when the aircraft failed to gain height during a low pass with the gear extended. Three of the 136 passengers were killed.

14 February 1990; Indian Airlines A320; Bangalore, India: Controlled flight into terrain during approach. Aircraft hit about 400 meters short of the runway. Four of the seven crew members and 88 of the 139 passengers were killed.    

20 January 1992; Air Inter A320; near Strasbourg, France: Aircraft had a controlled flight into terrain after the flight crew incorrectly set the flight management system. Five of the six crew and 82 of the 87 passengers perished.    

14 September 1993; Lufthansa A320-200; Warsaw Airport, Poland: Aircraft landed with a tail wind. Landing performance and aircraft design led to a late deployment of braking devices. Aircraft overran the runway. One of the 6 crew and 1 of the 64 passengers were killed.    

23 August 2000; Gulf Air A320; Near Manama, Bahrain: The aircraft was making a third attempt to land at the Bahrain International Airport after a flight from Cairo when the aircraft crashed into the sea about three miles (4.8 km) from the airport. All eight crew members and 135 passengers were killed.

These are the only crashes in your list where FBW aircraft were involved. Airbus A300/310 series are NOT FBW equipped.

All these five crashes listed here are pilot errors. For example in the Air Inter crash  the crew set the FMS incorrectly. IIRC they set the it to 3000 ft/min descent instead of 3 degrees nose down, that could happen with any airplane if you leave your brains home, no matter if the plane is FBW or not. All these crashes could have happened to a Boeing aswell.


Look at this accident;

3 January 2004; Flash Airlines 737-300; near Sharm El-Sheikh, Egypt: The aircraft crashed shortly after takeoff on a domestic flight to Cairo and crashed into the Red Sea about nine miles (15 km) south of the city. All 135 passengers and 13 crew members were killed. Flash Airlines is a charter operator based in Egypt.

I could blame this crash on Boeing just aswell. It was caused by mishandling of the autopilot.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Chairboy
I suggest reading up more on the subject.

What's the diffrence between and Airbus and a Homelite chainsaw?

[mora]

Originally posted by beet1e
Not saying you're wrong, HT. But if such a high proportion of Airbus incidents are related to the FBW system, then why is there an unrelenting trend away from conventional controls in favour of FBW? Do *they* really believe that the pilots must be protected from themselves, or are there other reasons?

The only major thing that the Airbus FBW sytem does differently compared to a traditional hydraulic system is that it limit's bank angle, attitude and angle of attack. There's not a single accident that wouldn't have happened if those limitations weren't there. OTOH there are plenty of accidents which wouldn't have happened with the Airbus FBW system.

People seem to have the misconception that the plane somehow takes control of itself and then crashes. The FBW system only makes sure that the plane stays inside it's intended flight envelope.

[Furball]

Boeings arent perfect, what about the 737 rudder prob?

http://www.airlinesafety.com/faq/B-737Rudder.htm

[mora]

Originally posted by Toad
What's the diffrence between and Airbus and a Homelite chainsaw?

Yeah it depends which side you wan't to believe really. Chairboy summed it up verywell. It happened early in the A320 program and if it indeed was a FMS glitch it has obviously been rectified.

[bunch]

Originally posted by Furball
Boeings arent perfect, what about the 737 rudder prob?

http://www.airlinesafety.com/faq/B-737Rudder.htm

Everyone a AH knows you dont even need a rudder to land safe

[Toad]

Anyone have a link to the NTSB report on the loss of F-GFKC?