Northern empire-theoretical discuss

[Saintaw]

Vonage? Is that "intimate care" soap?

[Westy]

Nah. It's for Vonage the broadband phone people and the song is “Woo Hoo" by The 5.6.7.8’s. It plays in the background as the ad shows stupid people do really stupid things (such as post and socially interact as agent 009 does)


http://video.olympus.ru/sounds/download/Kill%20Bill%20vol%201/11%20The%205%206%207%208s%20-%20Woo%20Hoo.mp3

[humble]

Originally posted by agent 009
Germany 1st takes Austria, Czechlosovakia, Denmark, part of Poland to connect Prussia with Germany, Then Baltic states, & Scandinavia,  & finally England. & calls it the northern empire.

No eastern front, no battle of France, no North African front.

Can they hold it? will US & Canada intervene?

This is your original post.....

Basically saying you attack england and bypass france. Now I gave you the historical basis for what happened...France was at war...it's military philosophy was passive. By engaging in your proposed course of action you alter the geopolitics and facilitate DeGauls rise to power along with other simiiar officers. You also let the french reorganization (they had just formed 4 armored divisions) continue.

So in a ntshell the answer is simple....not a snowballs chance in #&!!

[WMLute]

Originally posted by agent 009
1.Out of curiosity, is it possible to present your point of view without making somewhat negative comments like; you have no real grasp of geopolitical realities? Or is it some sort of internet etiquette that I'm not familiar with, squeezing in an insult as prereqisite to making ones point?

2.My IQ was 142 at age 14

Couple quick points.

1.  Something about a pot and a kettle here.... hmm...

2.  In this bunch, that places your right about "average".  Do bear that in mind.  

Also, just curious, are you still 14?  Or are you much older.  If you are older, I just have to ask, "what happened"?  If you are indeed 14, then that of course explains 90% of your actions and behavior.

[Pongo]

"Pongo you were not discussing it reasonably, Go back & read your 1st post, it was snide to say the least"

its hard to discuss something that is unreasonable in a reasonable way.

"So england and france dont declare when takes the danzig corridore?
So Germany doesnt ally with Russia to invade poland?

So they invade england successfully from Denmark? is that a two day sail?

Hitler ignores the two largest armies in the world on his flanks?

He has still not secured a single source of oil unless you count the north sea.

I dont think your scenario is even remotly feasable or in keeping with what we know of Hitler. But shure..if they succeeded in taking all that they wouldnt have to worry about losing it. Who is going to take it back? Why ignore france and the low countries though? They would be a piece of cake if you had england."

I dont see my post as rude or unreasonable. I understand why you dont like it though. Cause it makes your northen empire look silly.

Like I said though. Its hard to answer the question "how do I look with a big **** on my head " in a complementary way.


You of course totaly ignored that I demonstrated to you that the German navy was destroyed in Norway. So you just stop talking about that..in fact you stopped talking about the invasion of England at all.
Now your northen empire is reduced to Germany not taking all of poland and not takeing france and not takeing belgium.

So your northern empire is now considerably less then the Germans actually acomplished.  The French are busy re arming, their American aircraft will be arriving soon in numbers. Time is ticking.
You have to understand that ignoring Russia and France are not really options for the Germans unless they want to live in peace, which was totaly not the case. Both were very powerful economies on extreme re armement programs.

France in 1941 has 1000s more supperior tanks, 1000s more up to date American and French made planes. France in 1941 might be a different issue then France in 1940.
Russia in 1942 would be a different force then Russia in 1941..

Exactly the same is true of Britian.

[Edbert1]

Originally posted by agent 009
Can they hold it? will US & Canada intervene?

No, and no.

France would invade the Ruhr once (or shortly after) England was invaded and once Western Germany was overrun (handilly due to the Whermacht being busy elsewhere) the Russians would capture the Balkans and all of Eastern Europe.

[Karnak]

009,

In your scenario of German naval rearmament, why would the British allow the Germans to build a navy equal to or superior to the Royal Navy?  Germany's attempt to do so was the real bone of contention that brough the UK into WWI.  You think they're just going to let a resergent Germany do it in the '30s?


Even if, in your scenario, they pulled off a military and economic impossiblity and took the UK by force of arms they would be spent, utterly spent.  Since you postulate an invasion rather than a British capitulation you must count the Royal Navy destroyed as well as most of the Kreigsmarine.  The Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe would be spent winning in a nigh unteneable situation, causing their casualties to be astronomical.  They get no "instant navy" from the British in your scenario.


The result:  Germany has no defenses and is sitting between an angry, powerful France and an idealogically expansionist Russia with a huge army and a ruthless dictator at the helm.

You predict the results.

[agent 009]

Um, again, I didn't mention ignoring Russia. I mentioned a confrontation in Baltic states. That would require some reading above. & Really England & France become issues after fall of Norway. Which I've tried to clarify, but with so far little success.

If they do declare war on Germany then war would go pretty much as it did. Germany attacks France, then on to England, but this time with different naval strength, ( lst's, destroyers etc).

Again, I am well aware of political bent of Hitler which makes the scenario a very unlikely one, but as I stated, it is purely strategic, not political in nature.

Supply of England after fall is a good point. food for civilians etc. But then that is the point of discussion, the what if's, how this or that might be encountered. One possibility is to have Germanys colonies returned in Africa & pacific in return, Germany vacates France & England & peace is restored before US involvement.

Anyway, it doesn't appear that much original thought is to be
found here regarding the various possibilities of said scenario-s.

Well Karnak  & Edbert excepted. I wouldn't think an equal size navy would be the way to go, but rather one with fast Lst's, destroyers etc & shallow draft landing craft. More flying boats as well.

[Wolfala]

Originally posted by WMLute
and YOU sir, obviously have never met my granpa.  He TAUGHT Danzig how to rock.  Taught 'em to crack walnuts w/ their, well, better not get into THAT right now.  It's a pretty scary story fraught with peril.  Remind me to tell you the story of my grandpa and stalin, two beer bongs, and a whole lot of squirrels.

Sig material

[Karnak]

Originally posted by agent 009
Well Karnak  & Edbert excepted. I wouldn't think an equal size navy would be the way to go, but rather one with fast Lst's, destroyers etc & shallow draft landing craft. More flying boats as well.

The Royal Navy would obliterate such an invasion force.  You would need capital ships, and lots of them.

[WMLute]

Originally posted by agent 009
Anyway, it doesn't appear that much original thought is to be
found here regarding the various possibilities of said scenario-s.

Agreed.

The question is then, why are your ideas so un-original, and why do you keep going on and on about it?

New Topic:
What if Hitler suddenly could shoot flying monkeys out his tookus, and created a great flying simian combat wing that could help him take over the known world.  

Discuss...

[Overlag]

Originally posted by agent 009
Germany 1st takes Austria, Czechlosovakia, Denmark, part of Poland to connect Prussia with Germany, Then Baltic states, & Scandinavia,  & finally England. & calls it the northern empire.

No eastern front, no battle of France, no North African front.

Can they hold it? will US & Canada intervene?

yes

however well all know japan was always going to end up at war with america, and straight away germany to help its ally declared war on was america.... the only country germany "officaly" declared war on......Canada was partly british still so it was already helping wasnt it?

[Overlag]

also, people keep saying about how "if" germany waited they could have built up forces to make it even better... well what do you think the other sides would be doing???

hitler done it in the "right" order, apart from england... they NEARLY won BOB, but screwed up by changing to city bombing. Having won BOB, a "quick" invasion in 1940 or 41 would have probably been VERY successful. Probably only a few weeks longer than the french assault.

Once thats done, theres no back door, theres no atlantic war wasting resources, theres no need to defend the air, or sea and almost 100% effort can go to the east, and some in africa... but remember if the Brits had lost the UK, africa would have become free, much like french africa???

The war was lost as soon as he left england, and went to the East....he always said he didnt want 2 fronts... and yet he done that......

[Karnak]

Overlag,

No scenario I have ever seen had the Germans winning Operation Sealion, even with best results in the BoB.  The Royal Navy is simply too much and the German plan too small.

The Germans had no chance to capture Britain outside of a British capitulation.  None.

[Overlag]

Originally posted by Karnak
Overlag,

No scenario I have ever seen had the Germans winning Operation Sealion, even with best results in the BoB.  The Royal Navy is simply too much and the German plan too small.

The Germans had no chance to capture Britain outside of a British capitulation.  None.

i wouldnt say None.... but its lower than 20%

however you have to remember what happend to those BB's they sent to japan without aircover...what happend to those?

i cant remember who or where i read it buti think it would have taken just 3 more days of bombing/killing RAF and it would have been OVER for them thats how close it was.

however, once the LW turn there attention to sinking Brit ships whos going to bomb airfields from getting resupplys....hmm

also the river barges the germans was going to use was laughable.... they would have had the same fate as those DD tanks at omaha.

that percentage is getting lower all the time lol.......