The irony: US money caused the death and destruction

[CyranoAH]

Well, I've heard this from many different sources including AP and Reuters, so I'm guessing it's correct.

Osama Bin Laden was on the CIA payroll when the soviets were in Afghanistan... in fact it was one of the key pieces of the american involvement in the area.

...and somehow, one day, he just hates everything american?

Ok, call me conspiracy lunatic, but couldn't it be that he got mad because the CIA let him down or something like that? Another Noriega?

Jeez, this guy makes the villains from Hollywood movies look like aficionados.

(As a matter of fact this subject was discussed in "The Siege", if I remember correctly)

Folks in the US, do the humanity a favor and find this guy... whatever you do to him afterwards is up to you. I couldn't care less as long as he's brought before a court.

I have friends in the US military who have stated their will to do whatever they must, literally "if necessary more
Americans will die to bring this barbarians to justice"

My best wishes for them and for all americans, keep your head cool and do what you must.

Daniel, aka Cyrano

[Ripsnort]

The problems won't stop with him alone, he's 7 layers deep, there is no nationality borders with Mulim Fundumentalism.  We have many sympathizers in the U.S. for 'his' cause, Egypt, Palestine, theres at least one Bin Ladin sypathizer in every country. Killing him will only fulfill his long term strategy, making himself a martyr for his cause.

[capt. apathy]

if we just take out Ben Laden or his leaders with their suport structure intact somebody else will just fill the void we create.  to effectivly remove the ongoing threat we must remove their suport source

[Serapis]

We are virtually out of domestic oil reserves, the Wildlife refuge represents less than a 6-month U.S. supply that will not developed for better than a decade. It represents only 1 percent of the world oil supply and is only good for short term profitability.Check out Oil Analytics for more information.

Supply is not the real issue, refining and distribution is. In the summer we run at 98% refining capacity where any disruption bleeds over into the spot market where retailes buy fuel at the terminal rack.

We need more refineries or greater capacity at existing refineries. Our capacity has slipped due to good old free market capitalism. Refining is not really "big oil" and tends to be less profitable. The majors are generally selling off their refineries to independents(or closing and consolidating them). Refining becomes less profitable at greater capacity so short of direct govt. regulation or corporate welfare initiatives (as exists in the current Bus oil policy) it's not going to correct itself.

The ONE factor in the Bush oil policy that stands to make a difference to the current energy situation is the reduction in the number of botique clean-air fuels from the current 15-16 down to perhaps 5-6 (this is what the term "Balkanization" of the gasoline supply refers to). This will make it far easier to make up for any supply shortcomings in finished gasoline products since regulations today often prevent substituting one readily availiable gasoline for another in a different region.

Eventually we have to get away from oil. It's not going to be easy or quick (decades at least), and it will cost some short-term profitability at the corporate level, but if we want to get away from our dependance of foreign oil there's not much choice.

Charon

[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: Charon ]

[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: Charon ]

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by capt. apathy:
if we just take out Ben Laden or his leaders with their suport structure intact somebody else will just fill the void we create.  to effectivly remove the ongoing threat we must remove their suport source

Yep. And it includes ALL terrorist orgs, from IRA down to the Asian gangs running around in LA, this is MY opinion.  If it requires a police state, I have no problems in having my liberties limited to rid the world of these type of humans.

[Pongo]

Ya time for heads to role.
I hope we have the nearve to prosecute the heads of state that keep this going. and the political parties in differnt counties that condone it.
Canada is not inocent here. we have the sikkes that blew up several airliners in the 90s. we have been sitting on them for a decade trying to find the "legal" means to convict them...
roadkill.
shoot them I say.
Shoot those guys that were to go on trial in manhatten yesterday.
The "proofs" are often rediculously hard to get on these guys. we have to relaxe that requirment a bit I think.

[niklas]

YOU are naiv and blind Ripsnort. Itīs all about buissness.

When Irak attacked Kuwait, some month later the US fought back.
It took some years in Yugoslavia to get the US involved. No oil there. Who cares?
USA left Somalia after 15 soldiers were killed. Why sacrificing our soldiers when thereīs nothing worth to fight for, right?
Actually the USA is protecting Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, two countries who are definitly NOT democratic countries, NOT respecting all aspects of the human rights. Did the US or Europe ever demanded free elections there? Cared about the human rights? No, never. Why should they, they can do good buissness there, they get oil, everything is ok.

Did western countries or companies ever killed people in those countries or other countries in africa and south america? Not directly. But they support existing intolerant, non-democratic systems who often supress their people. Why? Because those governments allow them to do good buissness. No, our western companies donīt kill, they donīt have dirty hands, they wear clean white gloves. But indirectly....

Itīs not communist propaganda blabla when you say the welfare in our countries is based also on the exploitation of the second and third world. Itīs a FACT.

What is the target of Ben Laden? The main target is to get the US out of arabia. Why is the US showing precense in arabia? Oil. This is the ONLY reason.

niklas

"Herr, die Not ist groß!
Die ich rief, die Geister, werd’ ich nun nicht los."
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: niklas ]

[Ripsnort]

Guys,  don't respond to the above trash, he's trolling.

[niklas]

Ripsnort, take yourself the time and learn a little bit about history.

First of all: Saudi Arabia is a monarchie, and the regime is hated by the people. The king and his family is rich, but the land is actually poor and has billions of depts.
There is a lot of resistance against the regime, but itīs still dangerous to have a different opinion. Thousands of arabians went into the exil. Talk to them.
When the gulf war started many appreciated the help of the americans. But NO muslim wanted the americans to stay. Theyīre ready to pay for the help billions of dollars, oil. But itīs already horrible for the muslims that Jerusalem is occupied by the "dark". Now there are infidel people permanently on the holy soil - a major insult to all muslims.

Extemists blame the US that they werenīt even "invited", but came themselve to protect their own interests - oil.

People like Ben Laden think that they donīt need the US to defend the holy soil. And they hate - like many, many other - the monarchie in Saudi Arabia. And the saudi arabian regime is accepting that infidel people stay on the holy soil.

The Saudi Arabians have a lot of depts, theyīre basically in the hand of the western world. And i repeat, the only interest of the US in Arabia IS OIL.

You slowly get the picture together?

But what cares all this the americans right? Weīre untouchable, weīre number one, and if someone has a problem with us we drop some bombs on him. Who cares about the culture, religion and feeling of the people in other countries? Definitly not america, and especially not the industry when they can do some excellent buissness.
And now americans ask why people hate them. Unbelievable. You better wake up...

niklas

[straffo]

Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Guys,  don't respond to the above trash, he's trolling.

I don't think so ...

[StSanta]

Rip: I understand your sentiment.

But, we're moving towards globalisation and interdependency, not self sufficiency

It seems to me the key is voting with your money - i.e buying from a prtner you trust. Norway is the worlds second largest oil producer - and the US has, as you say, oil on its soil as well. but oil is only part of the equation.

The price will be higher costs.

The way to defeat international terrorism is the opposite of isolationism, but that's a whole other matter.

[Dowding]

I agree 100% Santa.

[10Bears]

Originally posted by Ripsnort:


Yep. And it includes ALL terrorist orgs, from IRA down to the Asian gangs running around in LA, this is MY opinion.  If it requires a police state, I have no problems in having my liberties limited to rid the world of these type of humans.

Wow.... this is how it starts.

[CyranoAH]

Originally posted by Ripsnort:

If it requires a police state, I have no problems in having my liberties limited to rid the world of these type of humans.

Rip, here in Spain there was practically NO terrorism when there was a military dictatorship. And I wouldn't like one bit going back to it for the end of terrorism.

No sir, there have to be better means to do it, and I'm sure the right steps towards the end of international terrorism are being taken. It may take some time, but if the international community says a strong NO to any form of terrorism, they are going to succumb.

Call me an idealist. I think it will happen.

But let's do it the right way.

Daniel, aka Cyrano

[Pepe]

Niklas,

It's not only about Oil. I mean it's got nothing to do with Oil. Oil is important as far as a source of revenue to finance their war. Unfortunately, far from being their only one.

bin Laden target is not US out of Arabia. bin Laden target is a 2 step one. First, unite Arabian countries (something of the utmost difficulty, but I concede western attitude has ease things tremendously in this regard). Second, destroy western civilization. As simple, as crude, as that.

bin Laden, and his likes, are muslims, but muslim is not the key here. Not all of them are like him, thank God. bin Laden is a fundamentalist. That's the key point. I don't care what is the underlying ideology/religion of a fundamentalist. The thing that makes them non-compatible with humanity (as we know it) is they see life of innocent as a tool to reach their goals. They would use ANY mean to get to their objectives. And Ripsnort hit it fair and square: ALL terrorist, each and every one of them. They are all birds of a feather, regardless the underlying "ideology".

In the horrendous mass murder America has suffered, muslims will suffer too. Islam is not bad per se. Fanatism is. All of us have to make an effort and focus the real enemy. If you kill muslim fundamentalism and pay no attention to the rest, sooner or later you will find yourself in the same bin again. Different faces, same problems.

We have a lengthy experience in Spain about politic fundamentalism. And terrorism derived from that. We've been cheating ourselves, we've been extremely cautious when dealing with them beasts. We've been pretending (still some are pretending) we have a political issue and that, in the name of our values, we have to be comprehensive with criminals. Dialog. Ha! Look at the results in our particular case.

Face it once and for all: politics, religion, territory, oil...have nothing to do with the real issue. The real one is Fanatism, and Terrorism associated with it. Each and every individual who commits, support, finance, hide, protect in whatever way or manner these kind of acts, this kind of thinking, is my enemy, regardless his motivation. In my book, they're not humans. They would not be more extrangers should they come from Mars.