60 second rule

[Flyboy]

Originally posted by Manedew
Such hypocrisy,


 

oh my

[WMLute]

Originally posted by Manedew
You still fail to see my behavior in inspired by yours??

You would fly like this THEN whine to max about 60 seconds?!?!?

figure out why I wanted the rules claified yet?

Well if you and others are going to fly like that why shouldn't I?

If you don't your apperently required to turn for higher cons who whine to the CM ???

While you and others coast around hugging alt and 'skirting the fight'

is it any wonder I point out your crazy interpretation of the rules by flying by them?

I would think you'd have some of this figured out.... guess not

Oh, I UNDERSTAND what you are trying to justify; it just doesn't hold water for many reasons.  

You have flown as you do now for every koth I have flown with you.  It is your "style".  You really have not changed it that much, if at all, but NOW you are trying to justify it and say it's our/my fault.  (Typical you)

You are trying to break, or stretch the rules to prove a point.  My question would be to whom?  And whatever for?  You were once put in a position to reverse or "break" the rules.  You choose to break the rules, and got booted from the game.  Ever since then, you have gone out of your way to push the envelope as far as you can about the rules.  Again, whom are you trying to prove a point to?  Me?  Heck, I know your wrong.  The CM that was in charge?  He said your wrong as well.  The community?  How would flying in a KOTH and stretching the rules as far as you can go prove anything to the community except that you’re acting like a spoiled child throwing a fit?

Your behavior is inspired by mine??  Pretty cool I have that much control over you, and how you act.  So if I fly exactly the way you want me to you would change how you fly?  I think not.  This is just a typical "ManeTMP" response where everything is "their" fault, and of course not yours.  How could we possibly hold you at fault for what you say, how you fly, how you interact with people?  Don't we understand that WE are making you do it?  It's our fault of course.  You are rude and disruptive because everybody else makes you.  (you said that to me several times in our last "talk" in the KOTH before last.)  WE cause you to act the way you do.  (sigh)  I just wonder if you understand just how silly that sounds (is).

Bottom-line that is a bunk.  
You decide how to fly.  
You decide to break/skirt the rules.  
You decide what words come out of your mouth, and what you type.  
You.  
Not me, not the "community"
YOU do.  

The WHOLE reason you have complained about the 60 second rule is that it is somewhat contrary to your fighting style.  Somebody approaches you with alt/e, you want to be able to extend, level out the E states, and get them to fight your fight.  With the 60 second rule, you are unable to do so to the extent you want and you don't like it.  Well, the KOTH is designed not just for ManeTMP and his style of fighting, but for all types.  B/Z guys don't like the alt cap.  Guys like you don't like the 60 sec. policy.  We can't please everybody, so the current rules we have in place are designed to try and reach a good balance for everyone.  

This is what gets me about you.  Some pilots have to use every advantage they have to win a fight.  It is their skill level, and/or flying style.  When they approach you, and have fought you at all before, they will know that jumping in and knife fighting you is suicide.  They can't win fighting your fight.  So they don't fly the way you want them to.  And MAN do you complain.  They are alt huggers, timid, skilless (insert typical ManeTMP rude remark here).  What you fail to understand ( I actually think you do, you just like to complain and, and throw fits) is it is where they are at in the learning curve.  Not many people can t/b with you and win.  So if they want to shoot you down, they are not going to.  How is that hard to understand?  If they want to beat you, they need every advantage they can get. You then get upset when they don't fly the way you want them to, and use those advantages to beat you.  Just drives ya' crazy.  


Speaking of crazy, the only "crazy" interpretations of the rules that I see are yours.  BigMax told you you were incorrect.  HE made the rules.  Now I am going to make the rules (Fuzeman the community and me) and I say your wrong.  Guess what?  That is the bottom line.  I have clarified what the rules are.  I have EXPLICITLY done so.  THEY are the rules.  You don't like them?  Don't fly KOTH, because in KOTH, you have to fly by the rules as they have been stated, and restated to you.  EVERYBODY does.  You are not the only one held to the rules, so don't act like you are.  The CM's will enforce the rules, and each and every player is expected to abide by them.  I for one would call anybody on a broken rule.  Not just you, anybody.  My job is to make sure everybody follows the rules and has a great time.  It is not (contrary to your opinion) to sit in the tower and ruin ManeTMP's flying experience.  I don't have a grudge.  My job is to be impartial, and I will be impartial, regardless of my personal opinions.  

Someone attacks you with alt/e and you go running away, after 60 seconds you have to turn.  THAT's the rule.   I don't care if you don't like it; you have to abide by it.  EVERYBODY does.  Don't like the rules?  Suggest a new one.  You have complained over and over about this rule, but have as of yet made one suggestion about what would be better.  Until a better rule is brought forth and agreed upon, the ones in place are what we are going to use.

(geeez... and here I said I wouldn't reply.  WTG! you got me to react.  Unfort. as a CM for KOTH, I sorta HAVE to react.  Sorta my job now.  I will enforce the rules.  I will do it by the book.  Try me.  You'll see)

[Skuzzy]

This event has always been one which has exuded class.  The players always had something good to say about the fights afterwards and everyone has had fun.

It is a bit of a disappointment to see this thread in here.  The rules are the rules.  Make suggestions, if you like, but respect the people who are giving thier free time to run this event folks.

Rules are not for voting on.  They can be discussed openly.  The CM's have the final say.  That is not going to change.  If you think you can run this even better, then fill out a CM application.
If you do not want to run the event, but would like to discuss it, then do so.

It is not acceptable, under any circumstances, for players to bad-mouth other players.  There is nothing to be gained from it.  Nothing.  If you cannot properly discuss, then leave.  If you think proper discussion is about being derogatory to other players, then you are choosing to not be a part of this forum.

[Midnight]

Heh.. you get busy during a day and miss all the good stuff... Skuzzy edited out some stuff before I got to read the last replies.

Anyway, I see all the points given about the 60 second rule. I guess I still don't like it to be in effect with more than 2 players still in the arena, and would LIKE to see a rule change, I will fly by the rules when I fly in KOTH.

Thanks for the replies Lute.

[Jish102]

Whew...glad that's over...for now

[WMLute]

But the thread is still alive.  

Earlier in the thread, I threw out an idea being discussed.  It was probably lost in the mix.  That being once you see an enemy icon, you have to fight.  There would be no extending, there is no 60sec. rule, you fight until you see no more icon's, then go fly to the closest one, and fight some more.

Opinions?

I still would like to hear from everybody on what they think.

[Jish102]

As much as I love the fights...I have to say NO to that one.

[Flyboy]

thats an interesting idea lute, not very practical, but interesting

[BlkKnit]

Lute, I dont much like it either.  Once you are forced to engage without recourse to re-positioning, or even just avoiding one to fight another equally/nearly equally close enemy, every pilot without alt or e will be at a disadvantage and without choices.  The main thing i always loved about KOTH was the choices....so many choices, so many ways to die.

Really though, I have ignored higher planes to join a "conga line" in the hope of racking up a couple with one pass rather than die by trying to get up to a loner.  Much prefferable to join the line and try to get the high flyer to join too....and blow his alt in the meantime.  I see no reason to engage at a disadvantage when there is a fight right in front of me with more even odds.  And if the guy above me is known to be able to kick my hiney without breakin a sweat, then I really do not want to have to climb to him.  Hope this is not taken as an inclination to avoid all fights, just as a hope that given a choice I am allowed to make one.

Been a while since I have flown in one of these, but I always enjoyed it.  Now it seems some of the fun may have been sapped out of it by a few people who are only in it for the "win".  If you want your name up in lights....buy yerself a neon sign.

[ROC]

Easy solution Lute,

Fuel burn to 3, that way they best find a fight in 10 min or fall down.






(Ok, I was only kidding...)

[TequilaChaser]

Nice flank you made there Skuzzy!

I guess we all know by now ManeTMP & Lute have an ongoing Rivalry,  I see in my view of both of them having similar flying styles.

I see ManeTMP express  fights as follows: some he says Good Fight, GK, or Salutes

some he calls: lucky shot, or something

then some he calls: you fly like a dweeb...

outside of the one moment I witnessed ManeTMP get booted, I see both BigMax & ManeTMP being right!  the whole situation developed before BigMax could switch from viewing one fight to the fight in question, and ManeTMP let his self get caught up in the discussion and extended beyond the limit.

ManeTMP is a awesome opponent to fight, Lute , Jish, Fuzeman, Stang, Blu315 etc etc etc... and any of them will fight you regardless of who has the upperhand, if they are at a disadvantage they work it the best they can to gain an edge, and if they are in the catbird seat they clean your clock!

we all have our on unique chracter of the way we present ourselves, just some people are able to bring the worst part of it out in others at given times.

Now,  Lute, your idea/theory of having to clear out the area you are in of all planes is an interesting one? the thing is I thought that is what KOTH has always been about to begin with, and is how I normally have flown the events.

and my most memorable fight ever was against ManeTMP in one of them slow carbuerated planes , no matter win or lose that was an intense palm sweating fight. The reason I  am making this post is to hope newcomers do not  judge any player by what comes out on the boards, wait til you get to know the individual players of the KOTH or in any arena before laying judgment ( and/or your opinion of anyone)!

ok, I am done jibber jabbing

~S~

[Manedew]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
This event has always been one which has exuded class.  The players always had something good to say about the fights afterwards and everyone has had fun.

It is a bit of a disappointment to see this thread in here.  The rules are the rules.  Make suggestions, if you like, but respect the people who are giving thier free time to run this event folks.

Rules are not for voting on.  They can be discussed openly.  The CM's have the final say.  That is not going to change.  If you think you can run this even better, then fill out a CM application.
If you do not want to run the event, but would like to discuss it, then do so.

It is not acceptable, under any circumstances, for players to bad-mouth other players.  There is nothing to be gained from it.  Nothing.  If you cannot properly discuss, then leave.  If you think proper discussion is about being derogatory to other players, then you are choosing to not be a part of this forum.

I guess 'thickskulled' was too much?  Thought it was mostly facts and questions?

to explain:
When I keep asking for clarification on the rules and get babbling 'answers' , includeing that I cry like a little girl (a sexist statement comeing from a CM?)  I maybe try to reask adding 'thickskulled' because I can't understand why answering is so hard.  Maybe AH's short text buffer throws my typeing into hopeless babble.   Maybe this causes them to not understand my confusion.

For answers I'd get ridicule..... from my gonzo attitude no doubt (I'd often put questions in sarcastic jab's towards Lute, maybe a bad idea).... but Max/Lute have not been flawless saints.  My questions got answered with 'YOUR WRONG'.  I know I'm wrong, you told me ....but can you understand I'm trying to understand the CM's interpretation of the rules.  2 people can read the same simple rules and apply much diffrant logic to it.  'YOUR WRONG' doesn't help me understand.  Understand?
______________________
SCSI- So is this attacking? I'm trying to explain the situation from my POV and to understand rules?  Not sure what your rules mean.... is meantioning thier comments considered attacking? I don't have anythign aginst Lute or Max, but felt a need to explain.
__________________________
Maybe I should avoid the facts and perceptions that lead me here but I still have questions:  


______
-If you have a con higher than you and one lower in another direction and higher con wants to fight do you have to turn for him?  Can you dive away and attack lower con? Does haveing two kills affect this in anyway?

Lute brings up a similar situation..... months later I still don't understand.  I'm not sitting here demanding rules be changed, I'm asking.


-What does skirting the fight mean?

-What does picking your fights mean?  You've said this is valid tactic.... but what are the limits .. when do you have to engauge ?  What if you can see the dots of another fight that you find more of a risk?  Can you head to that fight ... If you have altitude? .. if you dive low ? if con does or doesn't chase?

-If CM hesitates to answer during a fight what is a player to do? Should the player defualt to fighting the complaining plane, or ignore CM requests until CM says something?  CM's are sometimes busy etc .... so what should we do in meantime if we are unclear on rules?

It's hard to infer such details from simple rules.   You tell me I'm wrong, great!  Can you teach me why?  Or you can just tell me to shutup already?  But I think more are confused than just me.

[WMLute]

Just for you ManeTMP.  Basically everything you asked was covered already, but with such a massive wall o' text in some of these posts, I will make it easier for everyone.

If you have a con higher than you and one lower in another direction and higher con wants to fight do you have to turn for him?  Can you dive away and attack lower con?

 

(Using PA for pilot A and PB for pilot B)
If PA (with alt con) merges with you, and you go pick a fight with PB (low con), you are "IN" a fight.  You don't have to merge back and fight with PA.  You can let 'em blaze away on your six as long as you like while you are fighting with PB.  The 60sec rule is about avoiding a fight.  If you are "IN" a fight, that's not avoiding.  The only clarification I would make is if it takes you more than 60 sec. to start "fighting" with PB you do have to turn and merge with PA.  

I would consider a con w/ alt diving in at me a merge.  Not all merges are going to be nose to nose.  So if the higher con wants to dive in at you, that is now being in a fight, and you have 60 seconds to position yourself how ever you want, but then you have to turn and merge.  And, as long as you pas within' a 1000' of said enemy, you just reset the 60sec. clock.

Does haveing two kills affect this in anyway?

Originally posted by BigMax
Special rules for KoTH 2-timers (stuff we have been doing for years, but need to put into writing)

Dog piling, ganging up on the two-timer is allowed and should not be interpretted as winging. But this only applies to 2-timers. And players focussed on a 2-timer should be aware that they are not given any special consideration and can be attacked by any opportunistic player.

60 second rules still apply - the "rabbit" must reverse after a attempting to run/extend for 60 seconds... no matter the odds.

What does skirting the fight mean?

BigMax, Fuzeman and myself watched a pilot go from fight to fight, never really commiting, and when chased, would drag his opponents into each other, and get them to fighting, and fly off.  They never extended over 60 seconds (mostly) and would fly back and cherrypick the guys that WERE just chasing them and now in a fight. Eventually, after most other players were dead, they would then start "fighting" and attack the remaining stragglers.  

I consider this borderline skirting, legal if but barely.

TRUE skirting is avoiding period.   Not getting into fights.  Flying towards con's, then going right on past.  Not being nose on towards a con, and flying away from the action.  Basically, not being in a fight, or not heading to a fight.  THAT is skirting.  

I just wanted to clarify the two.  First is legal (barely) 2nd is not.

What does picking your fights mean?

Let's say you are flying around, and see 3 con's on the deck fighting in icon range, and in the distance you see a co-alt dot heading your way.  You can pick which to attack.  You dont' HAVE to dive in and mix it up with the 3 guys on the deck if you see a con w/ alt heading your way in the distance.  You can choose to dive in, or you can choose to keep alt and attack the incoming con.  That is picking your fights.  In both cases, diving in, or heading to the other con, you are on the way to a fight and not avoiding.  If said con w/ alt if not flying toward you, but away, you wouldn't be heading to a fight, but skirting one at that point.

If you merge with someone, and they reverse, and you don't, you are in a fight at that point.  They reversed, that is a merge.  Fight is on.  Just becaue you have E and are pulling away, or if you dive out and pull away, that doesn't mean you are not still in a fight.  If you see in the distance enemies that you perceive as a bigger threat, you have 60 seconds to get to them and start fighting.  If you can't do it within 60 seconds, you have to reverse.  If you can make it to the perceived threat in 60 sec. then you are IN a fight and not breaking any rules, you just are in a fight with a differnt enemy at that point, with original guy closing in on you probably going for the easy pick.

If both of you extend, and nobody makes a move, you are not in a fight.  There was no merge, you are both free to head towards the nearest fight, or perceived threat.  But you have to be heading to a fight.

If CM hesitates to answer during a fight what is a player to do? Should the player defualt to fighting the complaining plane, or ignore CM requests until CM says something?  CM's are sometimes busy etc .... so what should we do in meantime if we are unclear on rules?

Good question.  The CM is not able to watch all fights at all times, or even sometimes the CM is up and fighting with everybody.  Tough one to answer because you bring up a massive amount of variables.  I would say use the ole' common sense.  Try to continue the fight within the rules.  If they are running, breaking alt cap, winging, or any of the 'set' rules we all pretty much know it, and that needs to be brought to the CM's attention immediatly.  If the CM is busy, try to keep going with the fight following the rules as you best understand them.  It is not a perfect system.  Sometimes we have to clarify something after the fact.  But I know Fuzeman and myself will do the best we can to make sure it is 100% fair to all players, and try to keep tabs on everything.

We just have to honor the spirit of KOTH and follow the rules.  Most people know if they are running, skirting, winging, broke the alt cap etc, etc...  I expect all KOTH participants fly with respct and honor, and folloing the set rules.

Here are some good general behaviour rules that BigMax poasted.

What is "sportsmanlike"?

• Respecting "No Joy" calls
• EFing when you went over the ALT CAP, even if noone called you on it.
• Allowing adequate seperation
• A hearty "S" to victor or vanquished

What is NOT "sportsmanlike"?

• Skirting fights
• Running/Refusing to engage
• Delivering disparaging remarks to/about other players
• knowingly viloating the rules
• Firing guns after your plane has received terminal damage
• Winging
• grudges

If you need a question answered, please ask.  I you Mane for posting some great questions, and adding to the discussion.  Your asking these things will help clear it up for everybody, so there is less confusion.  Having not slept for 24hours, and being exhaused, this post is probably a bit disjioned.  I will strive to have a STICKY set up in the forum that clearly answers most all the basic quiestions about the KOTH rules.

[fuzeman]

As has been metioned, CMs only have two eyes and I know mine can only point in one direction at a time. Maybe we should hire Marty Feldman and add him to the CM list.
A point to remember with Pilot A high, Pilot B low and you in the middle. Pilots A and B may not see each others icon.
No matter which way you engage one of them the other may  think you're running.

[BigMax]

Hmmmm

Busy week for me..., didn't get to see the editted material.  I'm sure it was good.

Without digression and in response:

YES!,
WMLute and Fuzeman are taking over KoTH & EKoTH.  Both are players that have made KoTH what it is today.  They love it as I do.  Additionally, they have very contrasting fighting styles, which I see as advantageous to the event - two heads are better than one and knowing that they are of dissimilar fighting phylosophies means that both main styles will be well represented.  Lastly, they are both mature and intelligent.  I know KoTH will be in good hands.

Per ALL the aforementioned questions and comments,
I believe Lute has answered all of them in turn and they really don't need to be rehashed.  The players should know that Fuze, Lute, and I are in a detailed discussion of exactly how we want to make sense out of all this information.  Exactly what is the "best" way to clarify the rules so-as to make them as clear as possible for the players, and easily enforceable by the hosting CM.  Bear with us, changes are coming.

ManeTMP,
My comments about your most recent post...  You recurrently say that we don't explain, I do recall spending more than an hour discussing "issues" with you after one KoTH , and have taken time on several occasions to "clarify" others.  I just disagree with your viewpoint - which is still the case.
In any event, disparaging comments and rules violations will get you muted or ejected.  Your negativity in the game affects the other guys playing the game, which I let get out of hand once...  I refuse to let it be an issue any more.  I muted you last week for starting it up...  Your opinions belong here - in some sort of constructive fashion - not in the SEA during an event.
Like I have told you on several occasions, you are one of, if not "the" best player that frequents KoTH.  You are looked up to by many of the lesser skilled players, and respected by the ones similar in skill level to your own.  But the way you handle yourself in the arenas really needs work...

~S~ to all, thank you Lute for responding in my absence...

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