Author Topic: Is this a joke? (Read 1880 times)

midnight Target · « **Reply #30 on:** May 31, 2005, 03:08:35 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by J_A_B
We look at it from different angles. You appear to consider the act of flag burning asa protected part of a person's "speech". I do not.

We have this disagreement on a BBS, great example. We're both entitled to our opinions. If you were to track me down and break my legs, that would constitute an escalation of that disagreement beyond what the law protects. I view flag burning as a similar escalation. When a peaceful protest demonstration turns into a hateful orgy of flag-burning anti-americanism, it SHOULD be broken up and the participants SHOULD have that as a permanent stain on their criminal records.

It's illegal for the KKK to burn a cross in the local black man's front yard--in fact it's a hate crime. Physically, it's harmless, but it's very powerful in a symbolic sense. Do you feel that should be legal? Burning our flag is (or, more correctly, should be) a hate crime against ALL of America.

J_A_B

Yep I think burning the flag on someone elses lawn should be a crime.

duh!

And just as an aside. POLITICAL speech is specifically protected by numerous rulings of the SC. Burning the flag is about as POLITICAL as it gets. Your opinion luckily doesn't enter into the rights of Americans to express themselves.

J_A_B · « **Reply #31 on:** May 31, 2005, 03:42:40 PM »

Why is the Constitution so sacred and important and set-in-stone when discussing the first amendment, but it becomes "flexible" and a "living document" and "open to interpretation" or even "outdated" when discussing the second? Strange, isn't it?

I think it's telling that the only arguments I can see in favor of protecting the act of flag burning are of the "slippery slope" variety. Ban flag burning this week, be living in Soviet Russia next week!

Fortunately, our nation will endure whether our flag is burned or not, in spite of the people who hate it.

J_A_B

midnight Target · « **Reply #32 on:** May 31, 2005, 03:45:32 PM »

The only people who truely hate our Country are those who would trample on the rights it so proudly protects.

Sandman · « **Reply #33 on:** May 31, 2005, 04:02:48 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by J_A_B
Why is the Constitution so sacred and important and set-in-stone when discussing the first amendment, but it becomes "flexible" and a "living document" and "open to interpretation" or even "outdated" when discussing the second? Strange, isn't it?
J_A_B

The Second isn't written well.

Chairboy · « **Reply #34 on:** May 31, 2005, 04:08:30 PM »

I think we can come to a steady state here based on the last couple posts.

J_A_B, I agree with you that the example you gave w/ the 1st vs. 2nd ammendment is straight up hypocracy. For the record, I believe that flag burning is protected under the 1st, and that the 2nd is very clear that the right to bear arms shall not be infringed. I think you and I agree on #2.

I also think that your following quote is great:

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Fortunately, our nation will endure whether our flag is burned or not, in spite of the people who hate it.

I agree completely. In fact, I argue that the strength of our country is evident clearly in how our laws currently treat flag burners. What they do inflames an emotional response, and outrages most of us, but our outrage MUST NOT result in retaliatory legislation that will stifle those who offend us. Like you said, our nation WILL ENDURE. The moment we legislate to remove protections from those who offend is a clear bell that the nation we love is dissolving into exactly that which our founding fathers strove to escape.

The three of us probably agree more then we think. I suspect Midnight Target, you (J_A_B) and I all want our nation to remain the land of the free and the home of the brave. As citizens, we all must make sure that our intentions and our actions are compatible.

DrDea · « **Reply #35 on:** May 31, 2005, 04:11:55 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by J_A_B

It's illegal for the KKK to burn a cross in the local black man's front yard--in fact it's a hate crime. Physically, it's harmless, but it's very powerful in a symbolic sense. Do you feel that should be legal? Burning our flag is (or, more correctly, should be) a hate crime against ALL of America.

J_A_B

I agree totally.Great point.

deSelys · « **Reply #36 on:** May 31, 2005, 04:11:58 PM »

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Originally posted by Airhead
Post a link big mouth- show us a thread where it's been advocated we jail flag and bible burners.

Man some of you Euros jump on every friggin thread and try to paint Americans in as negative light as you possibly can.

Now either back your big anti American mouth up with a link or admit you're full of crap.

LOL @ Airhead...now a remark about 'some christian americans on this board'=anti-USA

Take yourself for a walk on the beach...and sign up for some english classes.

Sandman · « **Reply #37 on:** May 31, 2005, 04:12:57 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Chairboy
J_A_B, I agree with you that the example you gave w/ the 1st vs. 2nd ammendment is straight up hypocracy. For the record, I believe that flag burning is protected under the 1st, and that the 2nd is very clear that the right to bear arms shall not be infringed.

It doesn't simply state, "The right to bear arms shall not be infringed." If it did, there would be no interpretation required.

Sandman · « **Reply #38 on:** May 31, 2005, 04:14:17 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by J_A_B
It's illegal for the KKK to burn a cross in the local black man's front yard--in fact it's a hate crime. Physically, it's harmless, but it's very powerful in a symbolic sense. Do you feel that should be legal? Burning our flag is (or, more correctly, should be) a hate crime against ALL of America.

J_A_B

Well... the KKK can burn a cross on their own lawn and it's okay.

J_A_B · « **Reply #39 on:** May 31, 2005, 04:17:18 PM »

"The only people who truely hate our Country are those who would trample on the rights it so proudly protects."

Some day, in another gun thread, someone is going to call you on that statement.

Personally, I don't think flag burners are loving patriots (most the time they're whiny brats, I know because I've met a lot of them), and I don't think people who despise that kind of activity hate America. As I said, I do NOT think these people should be thrown in jail for that activity.

As for how well we might agree on things Chairboy--I actually tend to fall left of center in my political leanings.

J_A_B

DrDea · « **Reply #40 on:** May 31, 2005, 04:18:05 PM »

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The moment we legislate to remove protections from those who offend is a clear bell that the nation we love is dissolving into exactly that which our founding fathers strove to escape.

I think its an obvious conclusion that if our Forefathers saw some ultra melon burning their flag that they would have more to say about it.Like alot of things they never saw coming down the road,flag burning is done to incite outrage.I dont see the freedom of speach factor.

Chairboy · « **Reply #41 on:** May 31, 2005, 04:59:29 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by J_A_B
Personally, I don't think flag burners are loving patriots (most the time they're whiny brats, I know because I've met a lot of them)

You don't have to be a patriot to enjoy the rights in the constitution.

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Originally posted by J_A_B
As for how well we might agree on things Chairboy--I actually tend to fall left of center in my political leanings.

The only thing I accused you of was loving your country. If you want to disagree, it's your perogative.

I don't think there's any law that says you have to be conservative or liberal to be patriotic. It seems like a lot of public conservatives have been working overtime to make the case that liberal=anti-american, and likewise, a number of public liberals have said things that don't immediately discount that accusation, but the talking heads on both sides are hardly representative of the quiet majority.

Most people in the US probably don't think that being conservative means you're automatically more patriotic then your commie pinko neighbor any more then they think that being liberal means you're more compassionate then your cold hearted, god fearing conservative neighbor.

Those labels mean nothing, or, at the least, are remarkably ill-equipped to adequetely describe the views on social and economic issues in this country.

Chairboy · « **Reply #42 on:** May 31, 2005, 05:05:58 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by DrDea
I think its an obvious conclusion that if our Forefathers saw some ultra melon burning their flag that they would have more to say about it.Like alot of things they never saw coming down the road,flag burning is done to incite outrage.I dont see the freedom of speach factor.

One of the great things about the constitution and our way of life is that any individuals inabillity to comprehend something can't throw our national rudder from 'Liberty' to 'Tyranny'.

It would instead take the concerted efforts of thousands of like minded ultra melons to wrest control of congress, the executive branch, and the judicial branch to make the constitutional changes that will kill our country. And it couldn't constitutionally happen overnight, either.

Our election cycle is explicitly set up to stimy any temporary, emotion based legislation. There are some that work extremely hard to defeat this system of checks and balances, but I have faith in the strength of the house that George, Tom, and Ben built to resist this ill fated construction.

midnight Target · « **Reply #43 on:** May 31, 2005, 05:17:06 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by J_A_B
"The only people who truely hate our Country are those who would trample on the rights it so proudly protects."

Some day, in another gun thread, someone is going to call you on that statement.
J_A_B

Feel free, and while you're at it find something I've posted that is anti-gun ownership.

Raider179 · « **Reply #44 on:** May 31, 2005, 05:21:10 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by J_A_B

It's illegal for the KKK to burn a cross in the local black man's front yard--in fact it's a hate crime. Physically, it's harmless, but it's very powerful in a symbolic sense. Do you feel that should be legal? Burning our flag is (or, more correctly, should be) a hate crime against ALL of America.

J_A_B

You can burn a cross. You just can't "trespass" onto a black man's yard and burn it there. Burn em all you want in your yard. Unless you got something that says otherwise???