Please, give us this HT!

[TDeacon]

Sure we can whine about ack being "too accurate".  Depends on

1)  Whether the net effect of fighters being regularly picked out of the sky while dogfighting is duplicated in the historical record (it generally isn't).  

2)  Whether taking an anecdotal account about the best type of ack used in the war justifies applying this performance to all acks used in AH (it doesn't).  

3)  What the player wants the game to be (Some want a dogfighting game; looks like you prefer something else).

[MOIL]

Originally posted by TDeacon
I can see that GV guys might enjoy this, but am concerned about proliferation of additional puffy acks.  

Perhaps just limit it to shooting at GVs (assume the crew stripped off the AA fire control equipment as occured in N. Africa).  

Also note that setup time for something like this is probably significant.

1. Make the "original puffy ack" go away or be limited to CV groups and large fields. There is no need to limit the gun to engage only other GV's, the gun was used on bomber groups and tanks. If that were the case then bombers get to only drop on hangers and cities. And not GV's or gun positions!

2.Why should there be a "limit" as discussed earlier? There's no "limit" on how many enemy A/C or bombers can show up to attack you, so why should this gun be "limited"?

3.As I stated and others, a gun like the 88 {Flak36} would need to be moved by an additional veh or 1/2track and then deployed. Set deployment time to like 20 sec's or something. The gun should require a crew of two to operate or some sort of team effort.

[frank3]

I like the idea of having it being towed by a sdfk or truck, the position of the driver would just be 1, with the gunner being number 2.
Hit o to "open doors" so the gun sets up.

Vehicle supplies can rearm it.

Let the truck move independently from the gun?

[TDeacon]

Moil

The reason for limits is gameplay issues.  Remember this is "Aces High", not "Radar-controlled, Proximity-fused, Sky-sweepers High".  

I like the fact that we have GVs, strat game, etc., in that in allows additional playing styles and brings in more money, thereby allowing HTC to continue to exist.  However, the main focus is still fighter combat.  

BTW setup time for AA usage would be on the order of minutes (edited: or even tens of minutes), not seconds.

[gear]

Yep... That thing would give "spawn camping" a whole new meening.

[frank3]

So how about 'Aces Low'?

[Lye-El]

Originally posted by TDeacon

BTW setup time for AA usage would be on the order of minutes (edited: or even tens of minutes), not seconds.

Hmmm....so would arming and fueling aircraft, not to mention loading bombs and rockets. Insta-new armed aircraft.  Gee, if we only had those............

Good for the goose, good for the gander.

[MOIL]

Originally posted by TDeacon
Moil

The reason for limits is gameplay issues.  Remember this is "Aces High", not "Radar-controlled, Proximity-fused, Sky-sweepers High".  

I like the fact that we have GVs, strat game, etc., in that in allows additional playing styles and brings in more money, thereby allowing HTC to continue to exist.  However, the main focus is still fighter combat.  

BTW setup time for AA usage would be on the order of minutes (edited: or even tens of minutes), not seconds.

I hear ya Deacon, the name of the game is "Aces High" it's just a name. "Radar-controlled, Proximity-fused, Sky-sweepers High"
First off I don't think they will be "radio controlled" secondly, you make it sound as if fighters are getting dropped out of the sky left and right from ground guns or if this gun "were" allowed to be added {along with others} that you'd see them all over the place. I honestly don't think so {could be wrong} but don't think so.
I know guys love to complain about getting shot down over an enemy field but let's take a look at this a second. You {enemy} come to my field and  A) attack targets and or fighters. B) Kill the city and hangers. C) vulch planes as they try to up and defend
This plays out the SAME way EVERY day, wash,rinse & repeat.
Bombers come in and if we don't have fighters up or at the right alt, the base gets pounded to oblivion.
What do you honestly think happened to planes in WW2 when they attacked or flew over hostile fields/bases ????

The argument of this is a "flight sim" is a dying one. To think that the "fighter pilot" guys just want to up planes and dog fight like in WW2 and attack things or places without the threat of any other enemy force is insane. If someone want's to argue realism that's fine, then just as you point out the "minutes" it would take to set up this gun or that it would be a Proxy-fuzed sky-sweeper is as crazy as bombers lifting off the runway only to fly to spawn point 2 miles away and drop 50 bombs on a GV's head at 200' off the deck.  

I guess this will always be an argument for both sides, and I can see both sides.

I guess I just don't see the big deal, if you wan't to dog fight, be Mr sim-pilot that's fine dog fight all day & night who's to stop ya and why would you care about what I or anyone else is doing on the ground?  It doesn't stop you from dog fighting, but wait you want to do it at my field? over my city?  Think not, you should be greeted with a hail of AA fire!!!

[TDeacon]

Moil,

I appreciate your point of view.  BTW, I'm not a member of a squad, and rarely participate in the strat game, so the objectionable base-capture behaviours you mention cannot be laid at my door.  My main goal is to find 1-1 fighter duels, so as to emphasise the different planes' characteristics, and players tactical use of them.  This humble goal is frequently frustrated by puffy acks, especially in the vicinity of CVs.  In the latter case, the effective targeting of small numbers of dogfighting fighters by puffy acks from long range is not only unrealistic (as are many other things in wargames), but more importantly is not enjoyable.  My point of view is of course only valid to the extent that it is shared by other players and HTC.  

 To clarify, I have adjusted to the current ack implementation, but adding movable non-AI puffy acks certainly has the potential of interfering with the type of gameplay described above.  

Lye-El,

Good point.  I can always fall back on the gameplay argument however.  :-)

[MOIL]

Fair enough, but this is what I don't understand "My main goal is to find 1-1 fighter duels" Then why not go to H2H or DA?
"This humble goal is frequently frustrated by puffy acks, especially in the vicinity of CVs"
Again no offence, but what do you think the warships did when enemy A/C flew near/over thier fleet?
Have you ever watched actual WW2 footage of the war in the Pacific?

Good points tho, GL with your 1-1 fites

[TDeacon]

WRT the DA, have been there a lot lately.  However, DA people tend to pick the more maneuverable plane types, and/or are fighting arranged fights (not open to outsiders), so MA still has its uses.  

Been a wargamer since the late 60s, so lots of reference material.  Large-caliber AA was generally used against bomber types, rather than fighter types.  The pacific footage you refer to likely shows flak defending against kamikazes, or attack aircraft.  No reason to waste flak ammo on fighters, and when they did, get the impression that effects were minimal.  

Also, note that the number of fleets/bases per square mile is vastly greater in AH than in real life, so the chance of encountering acks is greater in our game.  

So overall, we have a net effect on gameplay which we need to evaluate, and find a happy medium for.

[Lye-El]

Originally posted by TDeacon

  No reason to waste flak ammo on fighters, and when they did, get the impression that effects were minimal.  

 

Hmmm...I wouldn't say that. You looked at the bomb\rocket  loadouts on some of these "Fighter aircraft" lately? Corsairs, Thunderbolts, Mustangs, Lightings can flatten a field faster than the bombers. The bombers, just leave more craters laying around. One aircraft can deack a field in what? A couple of minutes? Two or more the manned ack life expectancy is in seconds. Ostis aren't much better. Don't fly at it and circle at more that d1500 and you are pretty safe. If you want to neuter it the turrent isn't much harder to destroy though you do have to fly at it.

If any FH are still up they hang around vulching until they are bingo fuel or ammo. Then they leave. No C-47, no attack on the town.

The real dogfights happen when you have a fighter screen up several miles away from the base, not over each end of the runway. That gives the defenders time to get wheels up, some speed and some altitude. All of which is needed to have a proper dogfight.

Anyway, thats my perspective for what it's worth.

[MOIL]

Originally posted by TDeacon
WRT the DA, have been there a lot lately.  However, DA people tend to pick the more maneuverable plane types, and/or are fighting arranged fights (not open to outsiders), so MA still has its uses.  

Been a wargamer since the late 60s, so lots of reference material.  Large-caliber AA was generally used against bomber types, rather than fighter types.  The pacific footage you refer to likely shows flak defending against kamikazes, or attack aircraft.  No reason to waste flak ammo on fighters, and when they did, get the impression that effects were minimal.  

Also, note that the number of fleets/bases per square mile is vastly greater in AH than in real life, so the chance of encountering acks is greater in our game.
So overall, we have a net effect on gameplay which we need to evaluate, and find a happy medium for.

I'm all for the "happy medium" trust me.  I don't want the MA any more lopp-sided than you do. I would love for the game to be played a little more historically correct and with a little more realism.
I guess it all boils do to a question of how much realism/history vs. fun and still enjoyable.
I just think when ONE force greatly out weighs the other it makes for some boring times.
My 2 cents

Thanks for the input

[Pooh21]

programable fuse

none of this easymode prox fuse

oh I hate that


think of the fun with your own timed fuses

blow bombers to hell
fighters


give your squaddie a 6call then put a flak over his canopy and laugh at his soiled underwear

[Overlag]

i loved using that thing in WWIIOL.....!