Author Topic: Nash....at Charon's request  (Read 2447 times)

Offline Nash

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11705
      • http://sbm.boomzoom.org/
Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2005, 12:46:21 PM »
Yeah, but my whole problem - as I saw it then and said often - was that war was about to start on the basis of the guesses of the war makers. I was guessing, you were guessing, and even the administration was guessing. And then war happened. Great.

All those guys were all over the TV saying that Saddam was this incredible threat, but they never proved a damn thing.

That's why I took the WMD bet. Because if he really did have them, the whole marketing campaign by the admin wouldn't have been so flaky looking.

Struck me then and strikes me now an incredibly irresponsible thing to do - to take a country to war to invade and overthrow another nation's government at the cost of tens of thousands of lives and billions and billions of dollars - based on guesses. Which turned out to be wrong.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2005, 12:55:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
Struck me then and strikes me now an incredibly irresponsible thing to do - to take a country to war - based on guesses. Which turned out to be wrong.


Nash, don't you see that this is your assumption about the intel available?

What I'm trying to say is that can you possibly conceive the idea that had YOU been sitting on the hot seat, reading all the intel you were given.... which NOT A SINGLE ONE OF US COMMENTING HERE ON THIS BBS HAVE EVER SEEN IN FULL TO THIS DATE, which the "newsies" have never seen in full to this date....

that you just might possibly have reached the same conclusion?

You may well be right. But then, you might have made the same decision had you been seeing what they were seeing in terms of intel back then.

In the end, almost all intel is something of a "guess".  For example, the world "knows" that NK has nukes now. Right? We KNOW that? So our assessment of the threat and our reactions proceed from that intel point.

Now... how do we KNOW beyond any shadow of a doubt?

Intel. That's made up, at least partially, of educated guessing. And which could be wrong.

Pearl Harbor? A disaster for the US that resulted primarily from incorrect assessment of intel. Intel based in part on guessing.

It's not a perfect system. Hindsight is much, much better.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Furious

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3243
Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2005, 01:09:48 PM »
Just for a second pretend that it can never be proven absolutely true or false whether or not Bush deliberately lied or doctored intel.

What would be your "guess"?

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2005, 01:15:45 PM »
That he didn't deliberately lie or doctor intel.

I sure don't think he's the perfect President. Not by a long shot.

But I don't think he's that dishonest either.

Same conditions, what would you guess? Why?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Furious

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3243
Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2005, 01:41:45 PM »
My guess?  I think he chose the intel that most suited his desire "to do something".  Iraq,  a continuing thorn in our side, was that "something".  I do not think this epidode was an out-and-out lie, but I do believe there was some deception.

I was for the invasion, but not for the reasons Bush stated. (direct threat, wmd, and all.)  Prior to this war, I felt the US had a duty to act as some sort of a world police.  You know, righting the wrongs and freeing the repressed sort of crap.  I do not believe this anymore.  The peoples that are ready for a safe, productive and functioning society will have one.  Until then we can only provide safe havens and refugee camps.

Offline Yeager

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10169
Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2005, 01:46:17 PM »
this is a religious world war.  most of the western world is currently on the sidelines with their heads up their a** but that is going to change soon.

Like I said, pick your side now so we can plan out the gps coords.
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2005, 01:55:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Furious
My guess?  I think he chose the intel that most suited his desire "to do something".  
 


In the early phases of intel, all they do is gather data. When you have some data, analysts begin to try to make sense of it. This is where human evaluation enters into it.

You see a big hole being dug on a satellite photo, the analyst has to propose a few hypotheses to explain the need for the big hole. There are several possibilities.

More data, hopefully some that removes some of the possibilities. But likely some educated guessing goes into it.

More data, more eliminations and finally "intelligence estimates" or conclusions.

That's what the leadership sees, usually not the actual data, not the analysts process.. just the "intelligence estimates".

I don't know how this one went down. Who knows; maybe Bush poured over sat photos and humint  and sigint intercepts himself. But I doubt it.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Thrawn

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6972
Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2005, 02:01:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
this is a religious world war. most of the western world is currently on the sidelines with their heads up their a** but that is going to change soon.



Yeah sure, any minute now...any minute now......ah screw it.


Quote
Like I said, pick your side now so we can plan out the gps coords.


Going geocaching?

Offline Furious

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3243
Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2005, 02:17:38 PM »
Toad, you know I am not suggesting Bush was looking at raw intercepts.  Why type that?  

You also know that the"estimates", which are sometimes opinions or best guesses can be tailored to fit a given situation, and that sometimes two or more "estimates" may contridict each other.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2005, 02:33:41 PM »
For the folks that have no clue of the basic process?

We all tend to use shorthand here and seems like it comes back to bite me in particular quite often. So, I guess I'm covering more of the general situation as I comment.

Now, did Bush get presented with various intelligence estimates, some of which probably contained contradictions to other reports?

I'd bet he did.

Did he have to pick and choose amongst them and lay out a course to follow?

Yeah, it's what President's do, part of the job. Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Bush 1......... all of 'em that had any sort of major military operation on their watches had to do that.

Did Bush 2's personal beliefs, perceptions and life history influence his choices?

I'd bet they did. I think they would for anyone in that job.

Bottom line I don't think he deliberately lied or falsified intelligence data. Someday I may be proven wrong about that but it's what I believe.

Further, if there were a shred of potential evidence that WOULD show he did so, I feel certain that folks like Soros, Dean, et al would be moving to prosecute him right now, and not only in the court of public opinion.

Boggles the mind to think that the anti-Bush crowd would hold silence if they had any evidence, doesn't it?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Charon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2005, 04:38:55 PM »
I believed, and posted as much at the time, that the weapons of mass destruction issue was spin. However, it wasn't because I believed there were no WMDs and the administration was lying about it, but rather that of the laundry list of possible reasons to invade Iraq, WMD was just most appealing to the public and the most legally sound way to achieve other foreign policy goals. That's how Washington works. Unfortunately for the Bush administration, the little tin pot dictator actually didn't have any WMDs handy when the dust settled.

Political speeches have failed to surprise me for over a decade now. If you are familiar with the issues you'll not likely hear anything different from what you can read in a press release. Having written numerous speeches during a five-year period, I tend to pay attention to the format, the use of language, the use of metaphor and icon and the quality of the speaker’s presentation (the technique). The same way, I imagine, Toad pays attention to the technique when another pilot makes a cross-wind landing in an airliner when he is in the back as a passenger. The exception to that, a real WTF moment, was the whole “Axis of Evil” speech. Here you have a list of countries not related, for the most part, with radical Islamic fundamentalism and a clear and growing focus on Iraq from the administration. What the hell did that have to do with getting the people responsible for the attack on the Twin Towers?

At first, the only logical explanation for action against Iraq, a secular Stalinist dictatorship that would probably be our best friend in the war against Islamic terror if Saddam hadn't bothered to invade Kuwait in 1991 and didn't have a hard on for Israel, was the whole war for oil thing. But that just didn't quite cover it. It became clearer to me following an article in The Chicago Tribune and a review of many, easy to find, primary sources. If you look at the makeup of the current administration's cabinet, you can find support among the neoconservative elements (a strong faction) for an invasion of Iraq dating back years before 9/11. At no point during that time was “WMDs aimed at America” a cornerstone of their arguments, though the threat these weapons might pose to our "allies in the region" was highlighted.

People like Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney were on record (some directly in a letter to Bill Clinton in 1998) asking for this action, and have similarly testified before Congressional committees during the same time period. In a vision worthy of Robert McNamara, they see the road to Middle East peace as hinging on some democracy domino effect along the lines of "build it and they will convert." Saudi Arabia was also seen as being unstable, a potential Iran, with the need to establish a secondary source for basing in the region as well as a backup in case something happened to Saudi oil production. Additionally, and as secondary benefits, there were potentially significant economic opportunities for the U.S. oil industry in rebuilding Iraq's oil infrastructure, the potential to increase Israel's safety on Israel's terms (strong, direct neoconservative links present to Likud policy agendas), reducing the threat to Saudi Arabia and Kuwait from a future Iraqi invasion and of course closure for some of the issues that arose from the end of the first Gulf War. Again, you can find most of this of this direct from the horses’ mouth by accessing the Project for the New American Century (please follow this link to see a broad description) and this one for The formal Web site. Worthy to check out, really must read infromation.

Additionally, it has come to light that Paul Wolfowitz was pushing for the Iraq option on 9/12 and seemed have blinders on concerning Osama bin Ladin even as information was developed pointing out who the real culprits were. This is been documented in a variety of " insider " books that of came out since and have not been generally disputed, though the significance has been downplayed by those involved. With a P.R. perspective you could see it unfold rather clearly. It has also been clearly documented that there was a fight for the heart and mind of the President between his neoconservative cabinet members and the old school conservative, Colin Powell. The neoconservatives won.

If you remember, there was a strong push in the first couple of weeks after the attack to link Iraq to 9/11. That just didn't pan out (formally, though message development continued to successfully establish a “link” in much of the public’s mind). While action got under way against Afghanistan, certainly a legitimate target, the focus then shifted to Iraq and weapons of mass destruction. This was undoubtedly driven by the fact that there were legal opportunities to pursue this route, as well as consumer marketing 101 which states emotion sells -- not facts. What are the chances of America going to war to overthrow Saddam based on bland think-tank foreign policy theory? Who would pay attention to that? It’s a lot easier decision to make if you are worried about getting vaporized in your bed by Saddam’s atomic bomb. Further, conventional PR wisdom dictates that few people will bother to take a critical look at the logic behind the threat.

1. Saddam Hussein was a Stalinist dictator who focused much of his genocidal efforts on eradicating his personal threats from radical Isalm. If you give Osama bin Ladin WMDs you can flip a coin to see if he's going to use them on you or against the United States.

2. Saddam Hussein clearly had regional ambitions. After going to enormous trouble to develop these weapons it is a illogical to assume that you are going to give them to somebody else.

3. There are far more credible chemical and nuclear threats posed by other countries that would logically have been higher on the list as a first target and that subsequently have not prompted similar action.

With WMD not viable today, the PR machine has moved on to the next message, “The liberation of the suffering people of Iraq.” Not the formal reason we invaded (a small point of course), but again, filling that important human need to be “right” and justify the initial support for the action. Seems to be working so far. Of course, that’s all water under the bridge now. We broke it, we’re there and we have to fix it. If we are really lucky, Iraq will stabilize and the necon regional vision may actually pay off. Then again, it may backfire totally with an Iraqi quagmire as the least of our worries. We’ll just have to wait a decade or so and see.

Charon
« Last Edit: June 10, 2005, 05:46:59 PM by Charon »

Offline Nash

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11705
      • http://sbm.boomzoom.org/
Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2005, 04:57:02 PM »
bee eye enn gee oh.

Offline oboe

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9805
Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2005, 05:52:27 PM »
Quote
...Additionally, and as secondary benefits, there were potentially significant economic opportunities for the U.S. oil industry in rebuilding Iraq's oil infrastructure...


Sortof like wealth redistribution in reverse - the taxpayers pay for the damage and destruction to the Iraqi oil infrastructure in the first place, and then pay for the repairs, with the primary benefactors being the wealthy owners in the oil industry.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2005, 06:25:12 PM »
That's one possible explanation.

Personally, I think the PNAC conspiracy theory belongs on the same shelf as the Coucil on Foreign Relations plan for one-world government or the Trilateral Commissions plan to take over the world for itself.

Both sides, Republican/Conservative and Democratic/Liberal have their very own little boogeymen to trot out to whip the troops into a frenzy of fear, loathing and monetary contribution.

And not surprisingly, the boogeymen are always either defeated or, even better yet, only temporarily neutralized by the good work of our respective leaders, allowing us to go on living and fighting for a better day. But we have to be always on guard, don't we?

............and Bingo was his name.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Nash

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11705
      • http://sbm.boomzoom.org/
Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2005, 07:14:11 PM »
Given that there is no mistaking PNAC's objectives wrt to Iraq - they're still available for everyone to see - and given that 17 of its members went on to be appointed to key positions in the Bush administration, such as:

Dick Cheney - Vice President & PNAC founder

Donald Rumsfeld - Secretary of Defense & PNAC founder

Elliott Abrams -  National Security Council Representative for Middle Eastern Affairs

Richard Armitage - Deputy Secretary of State

John R. Bolton -  Department of State and current nominee for U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations

Paula Dobriansky - Undersecretary of State for Global Affairs

Lewis Libby - Chief of Staff for the Vice President

Peter W. Rodman - Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security

Paul Wolfowitz - Deputy Secretary of Defense, 2001-2005

Dov S. Zakheim  - Department of Defense Comptroller

Robert B. Zoellick -  Deputy Secretary of State

...among others.

And given that their objectives have been carried out since arriving in the Bush administration, I need to ask: What is your definition of "conspiracy theory?"

Because you've got a bunch of men who had stated openly their objectives with regard to Iraq, then they got into positions to achieve those objectives, and then the objectives were achieved. What's the big mystery? Why all the talk of "bogeymen" and "conspiracy theory?"

Is it because, since arriving in the administration, their Iraq ambitions suddenly dissapeared? And instead they only reluctantly went to war based on sobering and credible WMD accounts, not to mention the human rights abuses? My friend, I don't think so.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2005, 07:35:42 PM by Nash »