good way to get people to fly...

[GRUNHERZ]

Uhmmm, our emergency guys got 25,000 or more people out of the buildings... The fact that now it seems only about 3000 building employess actually died out of nearly 30,000 is quite an accomplishment considering it took many people and pretty much everyone over half way up more than an hour to get down the stairs.

[GRUNHERZ]

As for El Al well pretty much every big US airline does more business in a day or two, their secrity procedures are unrealistic for USA and reall everywhere else with lots of trafic.

[Hangtime]

..the building collapse and our loss was an accident and incompetence of our emergency services (who should have known what the result of the fire would have been).
 

Miko, the guys that ran INTO those burning buildings might have more than a few words for you regarding 'incompetence'.

The BUILDERS and DESIGNERS of those buildings were absolutely stunned by their collapse. Not a single rescue crew considered the buildings themselves would collapse.

I don't think any city anywhere in the world was prepared or had in place medical and emergency service plans for an attack of this magnitude... except NYC. The fact that about 20 thousand folks AT Ground Zero SURVIVED speaks volumes about how good a job these guys did.

Mayhaps you wish to re-phrase your comment?

Nationaly speaking.. the nation had just as much terrorist protection as it was willing to pay for on sept 10th. On sept 11th, the nation demanded more. NOW.

The nation is ill prepared to turn its several thousand airports into secure zones via dependency on the airlines or private firms hired by the airlines. I for one am glad the Feds are on this task... It would seem to me that consistency is paramount to acheiving good security; and the only entity that exists nationaly (or will exist) in a position to acheive it is the government.

So, lets let Governer Tommy Boy get this homeland security department thingie set up.. who knows; maybe it'll work.

[moose]

I flet to the con

had no problems with lines at all. I arrived an hour early for my flight and got through security without a hitch, even with my carry on being my PC

only issue was with southwest when the flight attendant was a squeak to me.

i don't see too much of a difference in security measures now. they're just paying more attention then they used to.

[Gadfly]

Uh, the screeners did their job on the 9-11 hijackers.  If you are pissed, direct that anger to the INS.

[miko2d]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Uhmmm, our emergency guys got 25,000 or more people out of the buildings... The fact that now it seems only about 3000 building employess actually died out of nearly 30,000 is quite an accomplishment...

 Sure, no problem with the firefighters/policemen that were actually rescuing people. I am talking about the people in charge of emergency planning.

 They should have had a file - computerised or otherwise that would say "In case of an office fire the building would fall down in 3 hours. Please call Mr. Architect for more details."

 After that they should have called Mr Architect and asked "How does the presence of 40 tonnes of aviation fuel and undetermined damage due to the plane hit affects maximum time before the building falls down?"
 And Mr Architect would say "Holy S@#t! Get everyone out immediately from that building and the surrounding area!"
 At least that was what a real architect said after the fact. One could argue that it is much more clear after the fact, but the behaviour of buildings and materials in case of fire is one of the most studied and regulated areas of construction - with specific time limits associated with it.

 No policemen or firefighters should have been sent in.
 Helicopters could have been sent up with posters "Everyone get out" - to display to the people thrugh the windows.
 There probably was not possible to resque people with helicopters due to the fire, but there was not even attempt of that.

 A lot of people died under the buildings that had no business being there - because noone expected the buildings to crumble at all, let alone so soon.
 I talked to firefighter and he told me that since my house has steel support beams, in case of fire no firefighter will attempt to come in and control the fire (unless to resque someone) and let the house burn down - because the steal beams tend to weaken from heat and can cause the floor collapse unexpectedly - while wood holds it's structural properties untill it burns through.
 So they are well aware of those strctural details and probably have all the plans on file for all the buildings. How come they did not use that information in this case is strange to me.

 And it is not a case where US was first faced with terrorism, forget terrorism - I am talking about regular preparedness for the fire that should have been planned, tested and drilled.

P.S. I had friends and relatives working in the buildings right next to the WTC. Some of them were told to stay inside and not come out and then they were told to get out (through the front exit facing the twins) right before the tower building collapsed.
 Few minutes eitehr way and more people coud have been dead.

 miko

[ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: miko2d ]

[Gadfly]

Hey, Miko, are you smoking crack or what?

Please, Sir Genius, give me a list of all the possible things that could possibly happen so that I can be ready.

[GRUNHERZ]

Hangtime my dad is computer expert/ mathematican who made various engineereing math programs and actually did the math work on several civil engineering construction jobs like bridges in his twenties.

When he saw the towers burning that morning he immediatly said they would fall very quickly.

I cant belive the builders of WTC didnt notice the same. Its simply a matter of temperature and weight on the steel, they would fail.


Anyway its amazing that so many got.

[GRUNHERZ]

BTW Miko is mostly right about things here regarding the buildings falling. He is also right about the steel frame building on fire scenario. Belive it or not properly treated wood is the most fire resistant structural material in common use today.


I agree with him that no firefighters should have been sent in and that the whole are should have been cleared. SHOULD have been as in perfect hindsight but its still true.
But I guess they wanthed to help.

My father who hasnt worked in enginnereng for most of the last 20 years said immediatly that WTC would fall when se saw the fires, Im shocked engineers on site with knowlege of WTC did not.

[Gadfly]

Well, be glad that the Architect designed it the way he did.  The exoskeleton of steel I-beam columns kept it from toppling; that would have killed tens of thousands.

Miko, I am not trying to insult you, of all the guys here I respect your opinion above all.  But there is no way to anticipate every possible action, and dispicable ones are even harder to visualize and plan for.

They did a remarkable job in getting the civvies out, though it was a hard call until the second plane hit.  The heroic duties of the Police and Firemen require them to enter harms way, even when the most prudent action would be to clear the area.  Thank God for them and the tough job they do.

If you want to discuss the theory of skyscraper design limits, that is a different issue and sounds like a good conversation.

edit for spelling

[ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: Gadfly ]

[Furious]

Greetings...

Just a quick correction:

 

Belive it or not properly treated wood is the most fire resistant structural material in common use today  

Maximum fire rating for walls of wood construction is 2hrs.  Steel reinforced concrete or masonry will provide ratings of up to 4hrs.


F.


Additionally, exposed structural steel in the vast majority of buildings not for use as single-family residences or storage is required to be protected by some fire-resistive material such as gypsum, ablative paint, etc.

[ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: Furious ]

[funkedup]

I've flown 4 times since the attacks and I can't say I've encountered any problems.  Check-in went smoothly.  Only delay was 5-10 minutes in line waiting for metal detector / x-ray.  *Shrugs*

[Hangtime]

Sadly, even if the Port Authority Engineers got the word out after the fact, the Police and Fire teams would have been trying to get to the folks on the floors affected by the impact.

Can you IMAGINE the publics reaction had they refused to go in?

When I was a young man in a bad land far from home I had an elder tell me to do things that would certainly make me a prime candidate for a dirt nap. I did 'em tho, and so did every single one of the guys I was with. Every one. Without exception. Repeatedly. I guess it's how we were wired, to NOT be seen doing our duty was even sacrier than doing the job.

Even now, with all folks now understanding clearly that a building slapped with a jumbo jet has a finite life span, the emergency crews would go in.

The tape I saw after the fact, an interview with senior Port Authority engineers, was pretty explicit in its explanation.. "In our experience, it simply has never happened before. We had a bomber hit the Empire State Building in 1944, complete with fire; the structure did not collapse. We've dealt with many many high-rise fires, the buildings did not collapse... we did not expect the towers to come down."

After the fact... well; if everybodys hindsight is so much better than their foresight then why ain't we alll walkin around bent over backwards lookin out the big brown eye?

[Gadfly]

Furious, fire ratings for walls are for burn-through, not specifically structural integrity.  A fire rated column, on the other hand, is rated for structural failure.

[Serapis]

I've noticed that it pays not to wear a belt when flying out of O'hare, no matter how small the buckle.

Also, I hear they are installing metal detectors at Sears Towers here in Chicago. My biggest fear has always been that someone would smuggle a box cutter into the Tower to hijack it and send it crashing into the John Hancock building  

Charon