100/150 fuel useage

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Kev367th
D-Day the RAF had approx 32 sqns of Spit IX including the 2TAF.

Can you point me a source to that? I am researching IX squadrons per period, so far what I found is Squadron Signal stating the 50-odd number. I`d like to figure out the real number.

And note that there`s difference between a clearance given and actual use. That`s why we need some evidence that specific squadons

a, had the neccesary modifications made
b, had the fuel delivered
c, had the fuel used up

Otherwise we are left guessing. :/

[Kev367th]

Try -
http://www.raf.mod.uk/dday/rafu.html

You have to work your way through the whole lot, but I think it comes to around 32.

As for guessing, a lot of the aircraft specs in AH2 are educated guesses I would assume, given there has to be some lack of documentation on exact numbers etc.

Did a real quick count -
2 TAF alone had 30 Spit IX sqns.
So out of 30 sqns in June, 5 months later 25 were given clearance to use 150 grade. Think we can at least safely assume the overwhelming majority of Spit IX's in 1944 (prob 1943 also) had the Merlin 66 engine, and that they were L.F. IXe's.
This doesn't include any XVI/XIV units.

You would have to add the Home Defence Units also.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
And note that there`s difference between a clearance given and actual use. That`s why we need some evidence that specific squadons

a, had the neccesary modifications made
b, had the fuel delivered
c, had the fuel used up

Otherwise we are left guessing. :/

My, My.

This from the person that did neither 'a', nor neither 'b', nor neither 'c'. for 1.98 ata in the 109. All we saw from from him is pure speculation > 'planned and proposed'.

[Angus]

That link:
"Try -
http://www.raf.mod.uk/dday/rafu.html "

Is worth many words, - TY for it.

Too few,,,,too late,,,,futile,,,,- words like that cross my mind.

And over the beaches of D-Day that fine June morning, there were like 2*109's?

Priller and his wingman.

[Crumpp]

Hey Angus,

It was FW-190A8's from Stab/JG26.

Those were not the only sorties flown that day or combats.





When I began to realize the magnitude of the imbalance of forces that existed for the majority of the war I had to wonder why there never was a "Turkey Shoot" in the European Theater.  Operation Argument was certainly a turning point but it was nowhere near the level of destruction as that suffered by the Japanese in one engagement.  

When you examine the operations conducted by the Luftwaffe it becomes clear the argument of "Well they did not fight" holds no water.  They did fight with all that they had.  They just did not have very much nor did they ever hold numerical superiority with the exception of the first few months of the war.

The Luftwaffe inspite of its small numbers was bled to death over an extended period of time.  Had the Nazi Leadership thought more strategically and increased their pilot training numbers above prewar levels early in the war instead of waiting until 1943, I think the war would have lasted much longer.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Angus]

Wow, nice finding Crumpp.
Adie Glunz and Pips Priller.

I recall that Priller died many years ago, wonder about Glunz.

Anyway, will be back later.

[Crumpp]

Adolf Glunz, passed away on August 1st, 2002. He was afflicted with Alzheimer's since 1986, and was also battling Parkinson's.

"Addi" Glunz flew a total of 574 missions, including 238 with enemy contact, in achieving 71 victories. His total includes 19 four-engined bombers.

He has never shot down or wounded.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Angus]

That's sad. Well we're losing them all eventually.
What a lucky one though, getting away that easily. All the top guns were shot down or ditching many times.
The only thing I remember about him in a swift glance is that he was told to have been a phenomenal aerobatic pilot.
Do you have some link where I can read up on Addie? or Priller?
(I have Hartmann's book and Rall's books both, and have been in contact with a person who served under Barhorn post-war).

Now to the flip side, - I'll give you some cookies on our Icelander, Tony Jonsson. He passed away in 2001.
He flew 1200 hrs in WW2, there off some 500 hrs+ under combat circumstances.
(Other duties were actually tug pulling and instructing, - combat maneuvers and such)
He got wounded once, from cutting his knee on a tin can, which he dove on to to save himself from machine-gun fire, - a strafing 109.
He was hospitalized once, - because of scabies!
Combat missions were everything from Rhubarbs in 1941, CAP and scrambles in 1942 (Africa), offensive missions in 1943, and in 1944 everything basically, - train busting, bridge busting, crossbow, offensive CAP, bug-chasing and escort all the way to Berlin and such.
1945 some of the same, then finishing second TOD and going to his native country.
Flew his whole life and entered hazards again as the CO of aiding missions in the Biafra conflict (Nigeria?-drugs and food transport). Flew 400+ missions there, was fired at several times, and strafed on the last mission's takeoff. (Got the throttle shot out of his hand I'm told). Encountered Migs and Flak as well, - his rides were DC-4's or 6's I belive.
Flew in Zaire, and on the Iceland Greenland route, where he got out of an encounter with a glacier by flopping a fully loaded DC-4 into a wingover!
Finished on 747's by Cargolux, with 36.000 hrs in the book.

When you look at this, you wonder just, how one gets out of this without a scratch!!! What a life!!

[Crumpp]

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/experten.html

To compare with other countries:

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/aces.html

Now to the flip side, - I'll give you some cookies on our Icelander, Tony Jonsson. He passed away in 2001.

A very brave soul.  It is to these kinds of men, willing to risk all of their tomorrow's, that the free world owes its existence.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Scherf]

From Fighter Command War Diaries Volume 4, Spit IX Squadrons as at June 5 1944.

Sub-type follows squadron where given. I don't know shyte about LF.IX's, do they count? I've included them anyway.

2ND TAF

83 Group

125 Wing
132 Sqn B
453 Sqn B
602 Sqn B

126 Wing
401 Sqn B
411 Sqn B
412 Sqn B

127 Wing
403 Sqn B
416 Sqn B
421 Sqn

144 Wing
441 Sqn B
442 Sqn B
443 Sqn B

84 Group

131 Wing
302 Sqn E
308 Sqn
317 Sqn

132 Wing
66 Sqn LF.IXB
331 Sqn B

134 Wing
310 Sqn LF.IX
312 Sqn LF.IXB

135 Wing
222 Sqn LF.IXE
349 Sqn LF.IXE
485 Sqn B

145 Wing
329 Sqn B
340 Sqn B
341 Sqn B

85 Group

150 Wing
56 Sqn B



AIR DEFENCE GREAT BRITAIN

10 Group

1 Sqn B
165 Sqn B
126 Sqn B

11 Group

33 Sqn LF.IXE
74 Sqn LF.IXE
127 Sqn HF.IX
80 Sqn B
229 Sqn
274 Sqn
402 Sqn B

14 Group

118 Sqn C

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Scherf
From Fighter Command War Diaries Volume 4, Spit IX Squadrons as at June 5 1944.

Sub-type follows squadron where given. I don't know shyte about LF.IX's, do they count? I've included them anyway.

2ND TAF

83 Group

125 Wing
132 Sqn B
453 Sqn B
602 Sqn B

126 Wing
401 Sqn B
411 Sqn B
412 Sqn B

127 Wing
403 Sqn B
416 Sqn B
421 Sqn

144 Wing
441 Sqn B
442 Sqn B
443 Sqn B

84 Group

131 Wing
302 Sqn E
308 Sqn
317 Sqn

132 Wing
66 Sqn LF.IXB
331 Sqn B

134 Wing
310 Sqn LF.IX
312 Sqn LF.IXB

135 Wing
222 Sqn LF.IXE
349 Sqn LF.IXE
485 Sqn B

145 Wing
329 Sqn B
340 Sqn B
341 Sqn B

85 Group

150 Wing
56 Sqn B



AIR DEFENCE GREAT BRITAIN

10 Group

1 Sqn B
165 Sqn B
126 Sqn B

11 Group

33 Sqn LF.IXE
74 Sqn LF.IXE
127 Sqn HF.IX
80 Sqn B
229 Sqn
274 Sqn
402 Sqn B

14 Group

118 Sqn C

2 TAF Spits would have been LFs since they were working down low.  ADGB groups like 11 Group may have had a mix to deal with high alt threats as well so you'd find HFIX, VII or FIX in some of those units along with LFs in other units.

There was no IXB.  RAF pilots initially referred to the LFIX as the Spitfire IXB with the FIX being the IXA, but it was not an official designation.

128 RAF squadrons operated IXs or XVIs at one point or another during it's service life.

Wonder what the "B"  stands for after some of the squadron's listed?

Dan/CorkyJr

[FaliFan]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
The average of British production of this grade of fuel was 56.3% of avgas production from Feb 44 to Mar 45 and only going under 50% for 3 months (Apr, May 44, Mar 45). Highest production was in Jan 45 with 77.1%.

A Lancaster carried 24 times (2154gal vs 88gal) the quantity of fuel than a Spitfire. Or to put it another way, one Lancaster would carry enough fuel for the requirement of 1.5 Spitfire squadrons, @ 16 a/c.

The Nov 44 150 production is the nearest to the average at 54.8% (6,030,500gal vs 4,966,500gal). This is enough fuel for 2300 Lancasters/Halifaxes.

Considering the number of bombers (Lancaster, Halifax) that would not use 100/150 fuel and the quantity of 100/130 fuel they carried, it would seem that fighter use of 100/150 grade fuel was extensive since why produce such quantity if it was not required and not used.

Discussion now open on how extensive the use of 100/150 fuel was.

"The average of British production". Wasn't most of the total production and consumption actually US produced avgas tankered in from the states?

[Kurfürst]

Hmm, it appears Kev was right - that`s 11 Sqn with ADGB, 26 with 2nd TAF, total 37, if my count is right. Not much, about 440 operational aircraft flying missions.

It also appears that my previous assessment based on the indirect evidences available about the relatively small numbers of MkIXs in service was correct. A year before, in July 1943, there were only 10 Sqns of them in service.. plus those two XII sqns. still the Mk V was dominant, being four times as widespread.

However, some units may be in MTO that also used the Mark IX at that period, so 50 may be right for the total number sqns - or not.  afaik, and again, according to indirect evidence, there were even less MkIXs there than in the more important western european theatre.

Flying those SpitVs must have been scary in 1944 - and there were quite a few around, even in 1945.

[Angus]

A wonder really, that some Mk V's were still around in 1945.
Not many 109F's around at that time, or P40's....or a6m2's, or basically any other plane with issue dates from 1941.
Bear in mind that the production of the Mk IX is close to the production of the V, - IX and it's similar sister VIII totalled is well over the V.

Anyway, did the 4 engined bombers run on 150 oct at all? I thought they were rather more limited on the boost. So you would rather keep the high oct fuel for the fighters, right?

Harrry Broadhurst was asked what he considered to have been the best Spitfire model. He replied: "The Mk IX on +25 boost"
I have to dig this up, - when I find a VCR

[Kurfürst]

I think some Mosquito FBVIS run on 150 grade fuel, too.