ATP School, JAX

[moose]

Hey, anyone ever heard of this place? I've been looking at their fast track programs for commercial, cfi, cfii, etc.. heard good things from people at my FBO. Anyone in the flight community have any input on this?

http://www.atpflightschool.com/

[indy007]

Go to the Thinning the Herd thread & check my post, 3rd one from the top. The last 3 paragraph's are Golfer's opinion of ATP. It's very low.

edit: hah! fixed sry Golfer!

[SFRT - Frenchy]

I was a CFI for Florida Institute of Technology, I had friends from ATP. They didn't like ATP much.

Any school will  offer the fast track thingy, and almost garantee you a job after. I would not trust them, even if they are big names like Riddle, Comair, Flight Safety, ATP.  I met quite some people that ended up pooring a lot of money, and at best had an interview.

At the end, it all depends to your instructor, and it's not because he's working for a big flight school that he's good. In those flight school, it's not uncomon to have a flight instructor with 360 to 600h to teach you.

What says you have to get your private/ifr/commercial/multi/atp ina big flight school? A small flight school with a good CFI, and available planes will give you better results.

Working for big flight schools, I ended up bumping into stuff like:

- You are the 6th student today to do touch and go for 2 hour, your CFI is borred to his skull.

- The plane is not available, or late, but u still have to bring it back on time.

- The school throws his policies at you, and you cannot negociate this $1,500 overcharge.

- You better fit in the mold right away, CFI/management has no time to nurse you. As soon as you fall behind, you will end up getting kicked out, or refinance your house.

- When you go for your airline interview, let's say the simulator phase, you are judged on what you do and your personality, not where  you came from.

Your best bet is to ask around, and get a flight school with a CFI that has experience. Don't pick up a 60 year old CFI with 15,000h either. Those usually have no clue what the modern stuff do, all this new regulation thingy, airline requirements ... but they are great at teaching how to land in the middle of a hurricane.

Private and Instrument are the two critical licences, get a good CFI and you will cruise thru them, AND make all other licences such as Commercial/CFI/multi easy.

[Golfer]

I did my CFI's at the Las Vegas location in their 2 week program.  I have a pretty thorough couple of threads in here about them.

I did a writeup of a recent crash of a pinnacle airlines jet (thankfully nobody was on board) and I wouldn't be surprised if one or both of those knuckleheads went to an 'academy'

I'm looking for my threads now and will edit.

For my own curiousity...where are you now in your aviation career?  Few hundred hours?  Few dozen?

[Golfer]

Ah indy...I just read that post...thanks for cross posting it.

And I'm not goose

[Golfer]

I'm posting the meat and potatoes of my opinion.  I do not think highly of ATP regarding the quality of pilot they turn out.

When I was in Las Vegas and everywhere else I ran into ATP students and instructors they were all first rate people.  I enjoyed talking to each of them and they all were genuine in their love for flying.  The real tragedy is that they don't know how short they're coming for their large investments.  ATP focuses on getting you in and getting you out of your checkrides at the minimums.  During my CFI program I was a little disappointed in myself for being rusty on the ol whiz wheel...that quickly went away when I had to teach every member of the class how to use a non electronic one!  The kids/guys/gals all meant well and they are all trustworthy, but sadly the big academies don't care about anything but the bottom line.

The head CFI at Las Vegas...we'll call em Frank because that's his name...a very round man with a personality of porcupine skin.  During his class, input was not appreciated.  Experiences shared were frowned upon.  His 'preparation booklet' he sent out a month before i enrolled were the FAA Designees's plan of action.  Even a few of the damn FAA Inspectors are using his book as a plan of action for the checkride!!!   This is a big deal because that means there are no surprises for him or no new material being tested.  The classwork was a joke...in fact i'd be glad to send you a printout of the test so you can laugh.  I was able to complete the test in one evening without cracking a book.

I went into the program with a completely open mind thinking objectively in hopes of documenting my experience...which I'd honestly hoped to be a positive one.  In some ways it was...I had the three most mickey mouse checkrides of my life.  In some ways it wasn't...I didn't learn anything.  There was in fact a pretty significant role reversal for me while I was there.  I went from low punk on the totem pole (720 hours) at my home airport to the most senior pilot in my class and over 200 more hours than the most senior instructor.  I also had more actual instrument time than my whole class and all the instructors combined (100+ at the time)

Here is a link  to a webpage I had set up with intent to document my positive experience.  This is a good time capsule of my attitude pre-program.  Afterward I lost my taste because of how dangerous this type of thing can be.  When flying under the hood, at night in mountains (a big deal to an easterner to me) the instructors were asking me about 'cool' things i've seen and done in airplanes.  They didn't know they were supposed to respect night IFR in the mountains!

At this point in time ATP has a letter of agreement with ExpressJet (ATP Airlines it's jokingly called in house) to hire ATP instructors who have completed the CRJ Standards course (The cfi's pay $1000 for this) at 500 hours versus their current minimums of 600TT.  I can tell you how your logical career path would go if you want ATP.

You will be financed through key bank or sallie mae.  You will pay up front.  You will then be immersed in the "bubble" of ATP's world.  You will be scheduled to fly by the CFI's to knock out your private multi.  You'll log tons of Frasca or AST simulator time.  Some cases the students confessed just to turning the Sim on and then going to lunch to come back and log the time.  Great.  Once you've got your instrument rating you'll fly your Cross-Country phase.  You're basically a maintenance dog ferrying airplanes around to wherever they're needed from their maintenance bases (one is Long Beach, CA) and they boast you will fly from coast to coast.  After you have the total flight time you'll do your commercial multi/instrument rating.  After that you get your "reward" a 3 hr cross country flight in an old and busted Citation 500.  I saw a brochure with a new CJ1 with ATP markings so I don't know if that's changed or not.  After your Citation ride you're shipped to Las Vegas, Atlanta or Jax for your CFI program.  While you're here you'll also do your Commercial Single Engine and CFI-SE checkride on the same day because you don't have your commercial single...you've only flown twins.  After that's done you'll be hired on at ATP if they need you.  If not they pat you on the butt and send you on your merry way.  Pay at ATP is 1000/month (yes, one thousand dollars a month) minus 200/month if you're staying in company provided housing so for practical reasons you make 800 a month.  Modest bonuses for certain checkrides passed by your students on the first time...$50-$100 I was told.


I can write for days on this subject.  I'll attach this link for you to read from a head CFI at a flight school who had an ATP graduate leave such a bad impression she wrote this

When I was at an ATP location in Vegas knocking out my flight instructor ratings I had seen nothing but red flags. There are so many experience and knowledge gaps there by these knuckleheads being hired at Express Jet with as little as 500 hours having flown only in a contained bubble in the ATP (Or any other "academy") environment. Just yesterday I was talking about how god help the passengers on board an RJ with a new captain fresh out of his upgrade and IOE restrictions paired with a wet behind the ears right seat ATP or academy graduate. If something goes horribly wrong...there is no chance in hell that crew, in my mind, pull a Sioux City miracle and save lives.

Just looking back to 500 hours I realize all the neat, curious and "hmm i wonder what that's doing that for" moments I've seen also the way that the academies fly. It's a bubble...pure and simple. Nobody at the Las Vegas location had seen an airplane engine with the cowling removed. They had no idea how to get around without their dual GPS navigators. They had mistaken a trace of ice for severe icing...and boasted in a story about their encounter with severe ice. Their most exciting moment in an airplane was a low pass once in a 172.

I can still remember vividly my intro flight lesson as if it were yesterday. I can sift through my logbook and recognize most flights in my first 1100 hours of experience thanks to the remarks section of a logbook. I can recognize how much I've learned between now and every little milestone I've had. 100 hours, 250 hrs, 500 hrs...thinking about thoughts I had on flights then and things I've done...makes ya wonder when something really goes wrong for a relatively inexperienced airline crew how will they handle it. In this case...their self induced engine failures because of a severe lack of knowledge. High altitude training, experience and general knowledge would have prevented this. The worst part is...it's not the pilot's fault when they go through training.

At ATP they're spoon fed info to spit out just to pass checkrides. I hate to say it, but looking back the instructor in charge of the CFI's didn't care if you learned anything or would be a good instructor. He cared about his pass rate, which was astoundingly high and after going through my checkrides excessively overprepared for what was being asked of me...it's easy to see why they passed.

[moose]

i guess its pretty obvious that they're banging their students out. almost like a drive through school in a way.

im finishing my private up in the next couple of weeks and i'd like to continue on for my instrument and commercial but i dont want to wait 2 more years. (which is probably how long it will take me at the slow rate im going here.)

what other schools offer services like atp? its enticing to me because i could do nothing but live and breathe flying for 3 months straight, which i cant do at home. if you actually take the program seriously, would it be worth it?

ideally i'd like to get my CFI, CFII and come back and teach at the school im at now (HYA) and stay here until I get about 1500 hours.. then explore my options with CapeAir/Island Air. (although my old instructor actually skipped them and now flies for JetSmart out of Bridgeport)

[Golfer]

The problem is you're not going to learn anything of value in those 90 days.  You're flying in such a contained regimented bubble it's pretty silly.  When we flew in vegas the instructors logged the hobbs, sent in the electronic flight trackers and handled the airplanes.  This was frusturating for me as a former line guy...I moved and fueled planes for 3 years and watching these guys try to stack a hanger was like watching monkeys bang a football.  Again, I can't speak highly enough about their personality and genuine love of aviation...I blame the academy school atmosphere as one not promoting real learning.

How much can you learn...and by learn I mean experience or learn from someone else's experience when you're at a place for 90 days or less surrounded by sub 500 hour pilots?

You're not going to learn anything that will keep you alive when your world goes to hell.  The most "hair raising" story I heard while I was there was an encounter with ice.  Our hero was flying a cross country leg in a seminole climbing out in the soup.  Starts picking up a little ice.  The ice he described fit the description as a trace of ice...he defined it as "moderate"  He continued for another 2 minutes before deciding to make a 180 and head back to the airport of origin.  "Great decision" I thought to myself.  Just then he ruined his story when he was reflecting on his hard earned life lesson.  "When I filed the pilot report" he says (a good thing!) "I called it moderate, but in hindsight I should have said severe."  WARNING WARNING DANGER DANGER BULLCHITOMETER!  All the bells and whistles were going off and I inquired as to how much ice he'd picked up.  "almost 1/2 inch" was the reply.  I asked how long he was in the icy clouds...as much as 5 minutes.  He went on to tell the heart wrenching story of the ice coming off the props hitting the fuselage.  He looked after the flight to see the dents and paint chips and it never dawned on him until the head mechanic for the whole operation told them what caused it.  I told him to look closer at the port side of some 135 king airs and you'll be sure to notice a little bond-o on the sides filling in the dents left from ice being shed by the props.

Now I'm not the most experienced pilot in the world but I've learned a lot about flying in wintertime around the great lakes acting the capacity of decoration in the right seat of a B100.  We've been into "moderate" ice before and that stuff was not happy to be 'booted' off the airplane and it was all too happy to rebuild right back onto the boots in a fairly rapid fashion.  When I told this kid (the only one younger than me in the class) that if he'd been in severe ice...honest to goodness severe ice.  Turboprop airliner killing severe ice.   His trusty dusty seminole wouldn't have made it 60 seconds before it wasn't flying anymore and on its way to the ground.




The point I'm trying to make moose...the only thing that is going to come of ATP is the piece of paper.  I knew that going in and left even more disappointed in the system.  There has to be a way to fix it and that crash of the Pinnacle jet hopefully will cause a few heads to turn and evaluate the mass-production line of pilot training academies out there.  At ATP or any academy (pan am, regional airline academy, delta connection academy, flight safety academy, gulfstream academy, Ari-ben, Joebob's academy) you're not going to learn anything.  Knowledge and experience gained only with flying time are not going to be there.  You'll leave with your white slips...as long as you don't bust a ride.

Bust the same ride twice at ATP and they sever contact with you.  Bust a ride once and it quickly turns into a $1000 recheck with expensive 'retraining' and a full price recheck.  The day before I took my initial CFI (MEI in my case at ATP) easily the nicest most likable guy in the class failed his initial.  After a 1.8hr flight (at almost $250/hr) for training and another $400 checkride with the examiner he was out just under $900!  My budget was stretched bare and one reason I chose ATP was for time constraints (who could argue with a 2 week CFI program!) and easy financing so I didn't have to pay out of pocket.  I'd been ready and had my writtens complete for some time.  I'd been maybe 10 hours of flight training away from my checkrides...but ohio in winter isn't a great time to fly so I needed to relocate.  When it got right down to it, $215 airfare round trip to vegas and the cost of the program...ATP was best bang for the buck in a short time.



Do you just want this?

Or do you want this? (experiences)




Don't sell yourself short when it comes to experience.  If you go to an academy you will NOT have the skills to save your bacon or get a coveted airline job without that letter of agreement that their advertisements are hanging on.  They 'can' get you an airline job at 500hrs...but it doesn't happen for everyone.  It doesn't even happen for most.  Heck...I submitted an online applicaiton at ExpressJet over the winter and it wasnt until after I got back from ATP that they called.  After a few calls to mentors regarding ethics on a number of things and long term effects on some decisions made now I didn't accept the interview and don't regret it.  I doubt I would have been called if my name hadn't been on an ATP list somewhere.