Havent we been here before?

[john9001]

""The days of hardcore Communism apparently didnt pay off for them economically""

hey, i was gona say that.

what does vietnam have?     offshore oil.

[cpxxx]

I'm not sure if Lazs is being serious;)  While China did help to some degree. The Soviet Union was the real ally of Vietnam. It was explained to me there that Chinese visitors have very restricted visas. Then can only stay a few days and are not allowed to fly in and out. There is a strong anti Chinese attitude there.  I was shown an area which was once predominantly ethnic Chinese. Most were driven out by the Communists. Many of the boat people were ethnic Chinese.

Remember in 1979 the Chinese invaded part of the North in a punitive expedition but were bloodily repulsed. As it was explained to me the Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia in the 70's was as much to do with the fear that China wanted to bring Cambodia in as some form of province. The Khymer Rouge had a lot of help from China. Even now the King of Cambodia spends a lot of time in Bejing. It was said to me that China would like to make Vietnam a new province.

In Cambodia I was told that much of what was South Vietnam around the Mekong Delta including Saigon was until the 1940's actually part of the Cambodia. The French of course got the blame for that too.

Look at the map. They have China to the north with designs on offshore islands, possibly with oil and Cambodia to the west, who feel much of Southern Vietnam is rightfully theirs.  So you can see where they're worries are. The Soviet Union is gone and so is any protection they might have had.


Hence they look to the USA. In an ironic way, maybe America can finally win the war in Vietnam.

[Thrawn]

Trade between the US and Vietnam is almost non-existant.

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5520.html

[Hangtime]

Very touchy subject in this house...

as an ex- serviceman that is utterly convinced the communist government did not release or account for all our POW's I'm enraged by any 'normalization' with their government.

hence, I am less than charmed by politicians that have swept under the rug the POW/MIA reports to further normalization.

Lastly, WTF is the real deal here? We defended the south against communist invaders, then checked out; leaving the south to fend for itself... albiet with a massive amount of our tax dollars and equipment. The commies took over anyway.

Now the commies that run the place got the scrotal contents to beg us to bankroll 'em & protect THEM from more commies up north?

..and Washington is sniffing at the bait? What an incredible insult to those that fell.. incredible.

The hell with that..

Let us know when the Chinese have finished with the place...  good time to call would be when Mandarin is the national language of Australia.

[StarOfAfrica2]

I understand your anger man.  I have several friends who served in Vietnam and none of them are happy either.  And understanding their anger, and yours, I still have to say we have alot to gain by working with Vietnam.  They are buying planes from us to build up their air industry.  They signed deals with Motorola to improve their cell phone network and bring more american businesses in to provide more of a market.  They met with Bill Gates and made deals to crack down on software piracy and pass laws to better prosecute authors of viruses.  Improved access in Vietnam means more of those MIA cases are going to be solved and closed.  Another ally in Asia can only help our position with China and North Korea.  Access to oil reserves in the area wouldnt hurt either.  The more they succeed from working with us, the less they will need to rely on the threats of Communist power to keep people in line, and the more they will begin to enjoy the fruits of a free economy.  Entrance into the WTO can only improve things for them all the way around.  Plus, the Vietnamese dont have the same acrimony for the Japanese that complicate matters with Korea and China in our dealings with them.  Balance is desperately needed in that region, and a friendly Vietnam can really help provide that.  

I can understand if you cant bring yourself to support it.  But I think it's necessary, and in the long run isnt it better than the alternative?

[Boroda]

Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
The more they succeed from working with us, the less they will need to rely on the threats of Communist power to keep people in line, and the more they will begin to enjoy the fruits of a free economy.  

As a person from a country that worked with the US in the 90s and is supposed to "enjoy the fruits of a free economy" - I only can say that this "free economy" means starvation for the majority of the population, while people who were in power in Soviet times get even more power and money. At our expence.

To Hang: It seems to me that majority of Vietnamese people feel something like you when their government starts to "cooperate" with US. It's an interesting question, I'll ask Vietnamese people about it next time I'll go to a Vietnamese marketplace, but the problem is that usually they almost don't speak Russian, except for 5-10 phrases nessesary to sell jeans and sweaters.

[john9001]

the war has been over for a long time, most of the vietnamese worn't even born when the war was going on.

time to move on, or do you still hate the germans, japanese, british and the barbery pirates?

[lada]

Originally posted by Excel1
A border with China.

The US wants to put the brakes on China's growing influence in the region, hence the sucking-up to Vietnam.

Excel

Dont forget that they have very cheap working class in Vietnam.

Nike produce many things in that Communist country, so you can fell like an cool boy, while you wear those supercool emrekan [made by commies] shoes.


Anyway it seems to me that commies are not bad anymore and it seems to be official point of view in US.

[Hangtime]

I know, Iknow.. but I refuse to kow-tow to PC bullpucky.

Item: We're supoosed ta be China's biggest trading 'partner'.

Item: How's that fit with 'supporting' Vietnam against 'Chinese Aggression'?

Item: We've already made Taiwan's position damn near untenable.. you think Vietnam would get a 'better' deal from us than Taiwan did?

Item: It's now PC to sell honor and sacrafice down the river for a few corporate mega bucks?

I'm freakin ashamed to be an American on some days. (And I've never bought anything with a Nike label on it, Lada.)

[cpxxx]

In many ways you are right hangtime. But as someone said most Vietnamese weren't even born when the war was on.

I came away from the country with the impression that the worst thing that happened to the Vietnamese was 'winning' the war.  They are not natural communists. They want what all of us want. A better life for them and their children.

I was there for the thirtieth anniversary of the war. I detected more than a degree of cynicism from the people I met about the celebration. I commented to a guide that Vietnam would be much different country in ten years time for the fortieth anniversary. He agreed and said they it probably wouldn't be 'celebrated' in the same way.

More like commemorated. They won the war but lost the peace.

[StarOfAfrica2]

Originally posted by Boroda
As a person from a country that worked with the US in the 90s and is supposed to "enjoy the fruits of a free economy" - I only can say that this "free economy" means starvation for the majority of the population, while people who were in power in Soviet times get even more power and money. At our expence.

That doesnt exactly make the average Joe over here happy Boroda.  But I'm not really sure that any of us thought your road to change would be easy.  One thing I am sure of is that no one I've talked to has any easy answers for you.  It is a cause for concern to us (at least it is to me), how Russia and all the other former members of the USSR do economically, but I certainly don't know how to make things better.  I wish I did.  

To Hang: It seems to me that majority of Vietnamese people feel something like you when their government starts to "cooperate" with US. It's an interesting question, I'll ask Vietnamese people about it next time I'll go to a Vietnamese marketplace, but the problem is that usually they almost don't speak Russian, except for 5-10 phrases nessesary to sell jeans and sweaters.

Perhaps I'm in a unique position here, because Hawaii sees so much more traffic from asian countries than the rest of the US.  I'm not sure what the rate is of asian visitors to European nations is, so I cant comment on that perspective.  What I see here are the economic trade meetings, tourists, and asian families who move to Hawaii because it seems to be a "mid-point" for those wanting to become American, in more ways than just geographically.  Asian culture is very much integrated into the local social structure here.  We are one of only 2 US states with direct trade offices in China.  Japanese and Korean tourists outnumber those from the mainland US.  Vietnamese tourists are on the rise, and heavily encouraged.  There are more Filipinos living in Hawaii than anywhere outside the Philippines.  That, and most airline traffic going between the US and Asia routes through Hawaii.  All of those cultures are represented heavily in our population.  I'm no expert on any Asian culture, especially Vietnamese.  But I do know several Vietnamese people, and I see the representation in the local news of relations with that country.  I see no signs of animosity (in general at least) towards Americans.

Last week many of the "babylift" evacuees returned to Vietnam, some for the first time.  They were welcomed by officials, flown over in planes painted to match the colors worn in the 70s, basically had a very big production made over them by the Vietnamese people.  That wasnt all govt. hoopla.  There was alot of pain and bitterness generated in those two decades of our involvement in Vietnam, and there is some of it that will never truly be healed for generations.  And I think there are some people in the Vietnamese govt right now that are little better than snakes.  But someone has to start somewhere, no matter what the motivations were for the door being opened.  Now that it is, we need to take advantage of it.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Hangtime
Item: It's now PC to sell honor and sacrafice down the river for a few corporate mega bucks?

Hang, I am horribly sorry to say it, but, unfortunately this was the real reason for your fighting

It's a wonderful world of capitalism (c) Kinks, "Preservation, Act I".

Originally posted by Hangtime
I'm freakin ashamed to be an American on some days. (And I've never bought anything with a Nike label on it, Lada.)

Hang, I don't see anything to be ashamed of.

When You say such things - I start to believe that your nation indeed goes by the route we went in last 20 years Just like Miko2d or Genozaur said Destruction and defeat starts in minds

It's sad and funny that in fact both of us see one enemy from different sides of what used to be a gunsight

Both of our countries were built on some idealistic unreal concepts, that we still need to keep alive, to survive and not to surrender. Money, profit and political "common sence" are not the most important things. Especially for a nation that now carries "white men's burden" alone.

Sorry for being too pathetic.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
It is a cause for concern to us (at least it is to me), how Russia and all the other former members of the USSR do economically, but I certainly don't know how to make things better.  I wish I did.

Unfortunately - you are one of the few people who understands it and doesn't start teaching us Listening to that loosers resulted in a collapse of 1998...

 

Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Vietnamese tourists are on the rise, and heavily encouraged.  

[...]

  I see no signs of animosity (in general at least) towards Americans.

The problem is that you see rich Vietnamese, who found their way to integrate into a "brave new world", while I see poor, almost starving people working for food and accomodation at market-places and construction grounds Vietnamese community here is probably the most isolated because of language problems, they live in dorms with something like 2-3 square meters per person...

As for "30 years already passed since the war ended" - it's easy for you, Americans, to make conclusions, because you didn't have wars on your land for 150 years. I still take stories from War times very personally. Like my Grandmother describing German bombing of Belorussian railway station... Or my Father who told me how to distinguish Soviet airplanes from German bombers by the sound.

NB: maybe the last paragraph is only another stereotype at work, I don't know.

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by Boroda
Hang, I am horribly sorry to say it, but, unfortunately this was the real reason for your fighting

Possibly.. didn't seem like it to me. I know why I served.. and it wasn't to make some corporate junta rich.
 

Originally posted by Boroda


Hang, I don't see anything to be ashamed of.

I do. 'Business as usual politics' and slimy goverment is something I'm gettin mighty fed up with. I don't give a good gawdamn which party is in power.. an honest government would be a novel change.

Originally posted by Boroda


When You say such things - I start to believe that your nation indeed goes by the route we went in last 20 years Just like Miko2d or Genozaur said Destruction and defeat starts in minds

I doubt were quite ready to fold the pup tent and sign on with the Warsaw Pact. I think most americans are sick and tired of extremest politics and sham deals with pinhead potentates. Change is due.. 3 more years of the current crew in office will likely assure some swing of the pendulum back towards the center in the next election cycle. Meanwhile, if I sound bitter, it's only because I am.

Our kids are in harms way, our goverment is selling a pile of dreck, and international threats are getting a gloss over... far as I'm concerned, the current goverments credibility in forigin affairs is blown, the tax code is a wreck and internationl trade 'deals' are gonna put our economy and defense industry in the toilet (or china's hip pocket) if this keeps up.

Dammit!

[StarOfAfrica2]

Originally posted by Boroda

The problem is that you see rich Vietnamese, who found their way to integrate into a "brave new world", while I see poor, almost starving people working for food and accomodation at market-places and construction grounds Vietnamese community here is probably the most isolated because of language problems, they live in dorms with something like 2-3 square meters per person...

Your right.  If anyone had told me even 5 years ago that I would be living in Hawaii right now I'd have laughed in their face and called them crazy.  And knowing what it costs tourists to come here, I'm sure the visitors we have are above average in income.  The ones in the lowest echelons of the social order will likely never be tourists anywhere.  The same is true in America of course.  But everyone gets a chance to break out.  Some take it and some dont.  The chances may come more for Americans than Vietnamese, but then thats one of the things that has always attracted people of other nations to come here.  It's the American Dream.  My hope is that as things improve for Vietnam, it will improve all the way down the chain.  That may be a pipe dream.  

As for "30 years already passed since the war ended" - it's easy for you, Americans, to make conclusions, because you didn't have wars on your land for 150 years. I still take stories from War times very personally. Like my Grandmother describing German bombing of Belorussian railway station... Or my Father who told me how to distinguish Soviet airplanes from German bombers by the sound.

NB: maybe the last paragraph is only another stereotype at work, I don't know.

Thats true.  I cannot, in my relatively sheltered existence, imagine what it would be like to live in a country torn apart by war and grow up in the aftermath.  While my grandfather also served in WWII, and I occasionally heard some stories from him, they were not stories about fighting foreign troops from the grocery store down on the corner.  They were stories of a far off country with exotic names.  I can never understand a POV I havent experienced.