Author Topic: Gay Marriage  (Read 11796 times)

Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2005, 12:36:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
Ah... sorry... didn't see the smoke and mirrors aproach.

Divorce is also eroding at the foundation of the concept of marriage. This is a valid point. It is not an excuse to continue to throw other sources of erosion in there too.

So... in a thread about gay marriages, pointing that other things are even worse to the concept of marriage is a bit irrelevant. Once again... if you have to point a finger and say "what about them?!?!" then you've lost.


I don’t see Charon’s response as smoke and mirrors at all.  He clearly explained that any “erosion of marriage”  so far is the fault of married heterosexuals.  You can’t blame gays until they actually get married; this really hasn’t happened yet, at least legally.  It’s simple enough.  

You could argue: “Gay marriages don’t work, or are wrong, because… (followed with some kind of reason or statistic.).  But, that’s not the same as blaming gays for the failure of something that they have not been allowed to participate in.

eskimo

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2005, 12:46:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charon
I personally think this issue is smoke and mirrors for a lot of people (certainly not all and not saying you - I don't know you personally) who just don't like gays and want to punish them. "I may have to tolerate you as a member of society, but' I'll be dammed if you're going to get married or raise a child..."
I'll second that.  I think Charon found an effective, non-belligerent way to express the opinion I share.
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Offline SOB

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« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2005, 01:09:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
Ah... sorry... didn't see the smoke and mirrors aproach.

Divorce is also eroding at the foundation of the concept of marriage. This is a valid point. It is not an excuse to continue to throw other sources of erosion in there too.

So... in a thread about gay marriages, pointing that other things are even worse to the concept of marriage is a bit irrelevant. Once again... if you have to point a finger and say "what about them?!?!" then you've lost.

What is it about marriage that you feel is being eroded.  And what specifically do you feel gay marriages would add that would further contribute to this erosion?
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Offline Eagler

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« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2005, 01:22:47 PM »
SOB
stop beating around the bush, just ask HIM to marry you...just don't adopt afterwards :)
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Offline SOB

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« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2005, 01:24:16 PM »
Eagler, you know I'll never love anyone but you.  Now come over here and give me some smooches, sweetcakes!
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Offline Mini D

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« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2005, 01:32:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
I don’t see Charon’s response as smoke and mirrors at all.  He clearly explained that any “erosion of marriage”  so far is the fault of married heterosexuals.  You can’t blame gays until they actually get married; this really hasn’t happened yet, at least legally.  It’s simple enough.
He drew a correlation to something he felt was worse than the gay "marriage" issue. Tell me how that is anything but smoke and mirrors.

And.. gays have been "married" in Oregon. This was done because a gay city councel member decided to make a point of doing this in Portland without discussing it in any kind of city forum. The marriages were all anulled later, but the debate rages on.

To define a union between gays as a "marriage" is an erosion of the concept of marriage. To say that gays would be better couples than married folks is not arguing the point, it's simply reinforcing that the foundations are being continually deteriorated.  

Quote
You could argue: “Gay marriages don’t work, or are wrong, because… (followed with some kind of reason or statistic.).  But, that’s not the same as blaming gays for the failure of something that they have not been allowed to participate in.

eskimo
Actually, I haven't argued anything in regards to gay unions. Simply against calling them marriages. I haven't said gays are more or less likely to behave a certain way, make better/worse parents or stay together longer/shorter.

I also never said gays were to blame for the erosion of the marriage concept. I believe the insistance of allowing gays to be married does. In attempting this, yet another re-definition of a term occurs and yet another fundamental belief must be put asside. This is erosion. This whole discussion is simply proving my point. The only way to justify gay marriage is to point to the seedier sides and say "what about that?" We don't fix problems anymore, we use them as justification for more problems.

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2005, 01:37:42 PM »
the religious conservatives would say that marriage is a religious definition applied to the spiritual and physical union between a man and a woman sanctified by God.

To me its all about the engineering blueprints.  I accept male/female as the design goal/intent.  Anything else seems to fall on the side of defective.  Just looking at it from an engineering point of view.
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Offline Drunky

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« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2005, 01:39:53 PM »
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« Last Edit: June 24, 2005, 12:00:45 AM by MP4 »
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Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2005, 01:45:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
To me its all about the engineering blueprints.  I accept male/female as the design goal/intent.  Anything else seems to fall on the side of defective.  Just looking at it from an engineering point of view.
To take the engineering perspective further, if that was true, then people who are gay would not have...  compatible connectors.  But the thing is, they do, and they enjoy what they do, which means that by the sounds of it, the 'design' is quite a bit more flexible then male/female.
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Offline SOB

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« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2005, 02:08:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
To define a union between gays as a "marriage" is an erosion of the concept of marriage. To say that gays would be better couples than married folks is not arguing the point, it's simply reinforcing that the foundations are being continually deteriorated.  

...

I also never said gays were to blame for the erosion of the marriage concept. I believe the insistance of allowing gays to be married does. In attempting this, yet another re-definition of a term occurs and yet another fundamental belief must be put asside. This is erosion. This whole discussion is simply proving my point. The only way to justify gay marriage is to point to the seedier sides and say "what about that?" We don't fix problems anymore, we use them as justification for more problems.

I still don't understand what you feel is being eroded from the marriage concept.  Is it simply that it is being changed in any way that you feel is eroding it?

I've always looked at marriage as being about love and committment.  Therefor, the current problem is that homosexuals aren't included.  The problem isn't that they want to be included.  It simply doesn't make sense to me why they wouldn't be.
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Offline Drunky

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« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2005, 02:26:53 PM »
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Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2005, 02:27:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
He drew a correlation to something he felt was worse than the gay "marriage" issue. Tell me how that is anything but smoke and mirrors.



I don’t think that he was drawing a correlation to something worse at all.  He was pointing out something very direct: don’t blame gays for the erosion of marriage so far.

It’s kind of like blaming female NFL football players for a problem that NFL football may be having.  Blame all you want, but female NFL football players have not caused a problem because they don’t play in the NFL (I assume).

eskimo

Offline Charon

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« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2005, 02:32:40 PM »
Quote
He drew a correlation to something he felt was worse than the gay "marriage" issue. Tell me how that is anything but smoke and mirrors.


I don't think I did. I pointed out that any current erosion of marriage has had nothing to do with gays. Further, I fail to see (and you fail to address) what some general issue like divorce or a gay marriage has to do with any individual couple's marriage vows. My marriage is not erroded by anybody elses behavior. Other people's behavior had no influence on my decision to get married, or how I view my vows.

Quote
To define a union between gays as a "marriage" is an erosion of the concept of marriage. To say that gays would be better couples than married folks is not arguing the point, it's simply reinforcing that the foundations are being continually deteriorated.


I didn't say that. I said: "If anything, homosexuals demanding the right to marry, and putting so much importance on it, is somewhat quaint and encouraging, IMO. An optimal religious goal for society where heterosexuals are concerned."

Is not a monogamous, lifelong committed coupling an optimal goal where marriage is concerned for most religions? Where do I talk about “better” than married folk? All married folk should fall into this category.

Quote
I also never said gays were to blame for the erosion of the marriage concept. I believe the insistence of allowing gays to be married does. In attempting this, yet another re-definition of a term occurs and yet another fundamental belief must be put asside. This is erosion.


Is marriage a term -- a dictionary definition -- or is it a series of vows and contractual agreements (moral, contractual and usually - but not always - religious) between two people to join as one? Are not the individuals involved responsible for undertaking and maintaining those commitments in good faith, or is that somehow society’s responsibility now? If I bed the intern, then it’s societies fault? Too liberal for my blood.

You have yet to quantify your use of "erosion." Since homosexual marriage has not had an impact on the current state of marriage (a statistically insignificant handful of gay couples here or there not withstanding), please define the erosion and the specific causes and what should be done to turn things around. What existing behaviors and practices should we regulate/legislate in order to lessen erosion and reverse the trend?

Charon
« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 02:43:50 PM by Charon »

Offline TracerX

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« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2005, 04:57:14 PM »
A thought on this topic:

I sometimes imagine primitive man's early days with a groups of people devoid of both religion and civil order. For any number of reasons mankind adopted a form of what we call marriage. There was possibly little or no ceremony, maybe an exchange of valuable items as a show of affection. Some kind of simple social arrangement. What ever it was, it set them apart from the rest, and likely had some benefit for the raising and populating their areas of habitation. Families and larger Tribes were formed. Primitive forms of society accepted and enhanced this union for reasons we can try to guess at (reproducing families comes to mind), but it became ingrained in many different cultures.

Civil orders and Religions adopted and encouraged this convenient arrangement and blessed and enhanced its role with ceremony and official public notification. This is important since both Religion and Civil/Social orders significantly strengthened the only taboos for relations outside of marriage. Along the way, because of the way societies function, additional benefits were added to this recognized public unity. The ability to pass on inheritance freely without dispute, benefits of association, recognition, income, property rights, and so forth are passed on through the family which only comes after marriage.

At no point along the way until now has there been a real social need to have same sex unions. We must ask ourselves why? If we can find the fundamental reasons for why things are the way they are, we can discover wither changes to this natural progression will be harmful or beneficial. I doubt that the problems if any would be recognizable right away, but would have to be thought of in much longer terms than the here and now.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 06:24:13 PM by TracerX »

Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2005, 06:42:04 PM »
I apologise for not reading the whole thread, but I'd like to share an "ah hah!" moment I experienced on the topic of gay marraige.

I consider myself a conservative.  I hadn't been able to figure out whats the big damn deal about gays wanting to officially marry each other.  Why not just shack up if that's your thing, and STFU?

Well, I observed something interesting in a trial that forces me to look at the issue in a different way:

Do you believe that everybody is entitled to love someone spiritually and sexually?  Do you believe that everyone is entitled to have a "significant other" -  even gays?"

If you do believe it, reflect for a minute on how we come to love another person, how that person becomes our "significant other."

You get that way by communicating on a very intimate level with that person, and you tell that person things you would never tell anyone else.  From this kind of getting to know someone else, usually the opposite sex, you may come to love one another. Some of us get married.

Flash forward to a courtroom where a man's officially married significant other cannot be put on the stand and forced to testify against her husband because it is protected speech under the Constitution.  The Constitution acknowledges the dilemna  a spouse would be put in when forced to take the witness stand against her spouse.

If we think its ok for gays to love each other, and we acknowledge that lovers tell each other things that they would never share with anyone else, is it fair for attorneys to be able to force a gay significant other to take the stand and be forced to tesitify under pain of imprisonment against their intimate significant other? (I'm talking about a demonstrable long-term relationship)

I'm not going so far as to say gays should be able to marry.  I'm just saying that this true incident in courtroom opened my eyes up as to what the big deal might be to gays regarding gay marraige...  just food for thought.
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