Author Topic: Supreme Court Rules Cities Can Seize Your Home For Walmart  (Read 3966 times)

Offline Karnak

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Supreme Court Rules Cities Can Seize Your Home For Walmart
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2005, 02:56:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
would you say that the left was more or less a supporter of private property rights than the right?

In this case I would say that they are very much the same.  Both think this is a horrid ruling that was done solely based on the prior rulings from past SCOTUS and missed a golden opportunity to limit this, although that would have been "Judicial Activism".

Quote
would you say that the urban non property owning parts of the country were more or less likely to vote for the left?

Completely irrelevant because it pressumes the "left" supports this which it most certainly does not.

Quote
Would you say that looking at a map of the nation and how it voted for the two presidental candidates that there was a real division between urban and rural voting... a real "us vs them" or am I just making it up?

lazs

Completely irrelevant because it pressumes the "left" supports this which it most certainly does not.
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Offline Seagoon

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Supreme Court Rules Cities Can Seize Your Home For Walmart
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2005, 03:41:41 PM »
Hello Karnak,

Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
While strongly I agree with the Conservative members of the Court in this case, the moderates and Liberals ruled correctly based on the law as written.

...

This really, really, really sucks.  We need to have it written into law that the .gov cannot take one private party's property and give it to another private party.  Not ever.

And for the public use I'd like to see the .gov to have to pay twice "fair market value".


I agree with your statements quoted above, and while I am very sympathetic to your desire, I think it's going to be more difficult to consistently do this than we think.

That is especially true when one considers that a heavy proportion of local, state, and federal revenues raised via taxation already go directly to private interests and corporations.

For instance, in 2004 the U.S. Small Business Association (SBA) made or guaranteed over 21 Billion dollars worth of credit to Small Businesses and in 2003 over 8.3 billion dollars worth of those loans were "charged off" i.e. direct unrecoverable losses.

That's 21 billion dollars of taxpayer private property that was seized and then given out to private corporations in order to assist them to earn profits. 8.3 billion dollars of which went into various bottomless black holes.

Now some would say, "well we have to do that its for the public good, it grows the economy and increases the tax base. By means of the government confiscating a little bit of the private property of individuals and giving it to corporations, everybody exponentially benefits!"

But of course those are exactly the arguments behind the corporate assistance use of eminent domain. The problem is that our reaction to seizing and redistributing real estate to private corporations is far  stronger than our reaction to seizing and redistributing money to private corporations, but ultimately its all private property in either liquid or non-liquid forms, and often, as I pointed out, someone incapable of paying their taxes will end up forfeiting real estate or other property anyway.

Constitutionally, we've dug a rather nasty hole that just keeps getting deeper.

-  SEAGOON

PS: Didn't I recall reading that you lads fought a war for independence over an attempt to "recover public funds" spent on the French and Indian War via a variety of customs taxes? Whatever happened to that spirit? Per capita taxes in the colonies were under 2% and no agents of the Crown were calling for the actual seizure of real estate to benefit British corporations, funny what we are willing to endure if only the temperature is increased slowly enough. Anyone for Frog Soup?
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
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Offline Sixpence

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Supreme Court Rules Cities Can Seize Your Home For Walmart
« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2005, 03:58:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bodhi
Removal of any persons property for eminent domain that will benefit a private business is pure and simple theft.


Spot on.
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Offline rpm

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« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2005, 04:21:04 PM »
The right of eminent domain is old and established. It is a flawed and rotten law, but it is a constitutional law. The court ruled appropriately.
I don't like the law. I think it is the government strongarming the private citizen out of their rightful belongings. It happens all the time and there was nothing new. We need to elect legslators that will change it. That's all we can do.
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Offline takeda

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« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2005, 04:24:03 PM »
"In 1972 a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit.  These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Los Angeles underground.  Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as soldiers of fortune.  If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire the A-Team."



Offline 63tb

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« Reply #50 on: June 23, 2005, 07:01:47 PM »
Last year 60 minutes ran a story about a town (I wish I could remember where it was) that had a section of small homes built right after WWII. Most of the owners were returning GIs and their families. At the time these homes were on a hill that use to look over an empty field.

Well as time went on this field was turned into a beautiful park with a lake, etc. Suddenly the old section became very desirable real estate. The town counsul and Mayor were quick to figure out that if they could get their hands on this property and have condos built, the town would make tons more money on taxes etc, than these old retirees were paying on their modest homes.

So the town counsel passed a law that said if a house didn't have an attached 2-car garage it was considered "blighted". Under the law, blighted property could be taken by the town under eminent domain. Well these old homes either didn't have garages or had single detached ones. These were beautiful little houses that people raised their kids and grand kids in.

The kicker of the story was when 60 Minutes interviewed the Mayor, they got her to admit that her home (which was in a different part of town) didn't have a garage either. However it wasn't declared blighted. I don't know how it turned out for these families.

It use to be that eminent domain laws were for public safety or infrastructure issues. Like widening/adding roads, building water towers, etc, that while terrible to those affected, did bring benefit over all. However it sounds like now they are giving carte blanche to municipalities that just want to make a buck.

63tb

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #51 on: June 23, 2005, 07:06:58 PM »
Just my $0.02

I read this today and it made me sick.  I was also thinking OMG yet one more time I'm going to have to agree with liberal judges, then I read the voting disention and was shocked and at least happy that the conservatives voted against this.

This makes me sick that a citizen can lose his home for the "good of the people" in the name of "private development".

Totally sickening erosion of basic principles of rights.

Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #52 on: June 23, 2005, 08:31:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts


The manipulation of the Constitution has pushed us off the top, onto the slippery slope, and now we slide out of control towards disaster.


I agree.
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Offline Chairboy

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Offline Toad

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« Reply #54 on: June 23, 2005, 09:19:35 PM »
Cats and dogs swapping roles, eh?

First the Liberal judges stop "medical marijuana" and next the hand eminent domain over to the commercial developers. Bah.

Tell me again, do you want "strict constructionist" judges that have to find "textual" support in the Constitution or do you want folks that can stretch simple words to cover any new desire or fad?

That being said..............

I'm aware of a small town that's getting a relatively huge influx of military within a few months. The older parts of town really are blighted; small <800 sq ft shacks that are actually leaning left and right on their foundations. Some decent ones in there but probably 60% long overdue for replacement.

The city sees this opportunity to revitalize. They'd like to redevelop downtown. It's probably their last chance. However, they are not going the "eminent domain" route. They offer tax abatements to developers that can buy up a whole city block (maybe 10-14 houses, small blocks) but they aren't putting any pressure on the owners to sell.

Developers have contacted the owners of these falling down rental shacks. Suddenly everyone thinks a shack is worth 3X appraised value and vacant lots (where shacks have fallen down and been removed) are 10X appraisal.

So, Developers are buying farmland on the edge of town for a fraction of the price per acre. Yes, they have to put in streets and utilities but it is still cheaper BY FAR to build a new subdivision on the edge of town.

This contributes to urban sprawl and condemns the "inner city" to decay for essentially forever. It's unlikely such a huge influx of new residents will ever come again.

Question: Should the city "eminent domain" in this case? The area is probably 20 blocks by 20 blocks, which is most of "downtown".

It's probably too late to do anything, but should they have gone the eminent domain route?
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Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #55 on: June 23, 2005, 09:31:08 PM »
Toad,
Were they privately owned? If yes, that's their prerogative to go the greedy route.

If they're publicly funded, well, they'd already been building on them.
-SW

Offline Toad

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« Reply #56 on: June 23, 2005, 09:56:48 PM »
Oh yeah, the houses/lots are almost all privately owned.

A very few of the worst were condemned by the city and taken for taxes. These were used for a low-income self-help program funded in part by USDA (never did figure out that connection) where folks help build their own houses. City contracts the major "tech" stuff like plumbing, electrical, foundations, the families band together and do roofing/siding/painting. It's worked well for them

The end result is going to be a rotting down town and spawling suburbs as the troops come rolling in to town. The folks asking 20K for a 50X150 downtown lot will own it the rest of their lives and nothing will be built on it. No one's going to but new houses in a tumbledown distirct that costs more.

I know it's their choice, but their tossing their last chance to revitalize. Seems foolish but hey, it's their choice.
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Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2005, 10:13:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
I know it's theirchoice, but their tossing their last chance to revitalize. Seems foolish but hey, it's their choice.


yup that's really all that matters.....choice.....everyt hing else should come second.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #58 on: June 23, 2005, 10:19:22 PM »
Yeah, I know.

Just bums me that we're going to get a spawling town with a rotten core.

More places to hunt changed into "3Br, 2.5BA, 2 Car, fenced yard" because some people are tardlets. ;)
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Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #59 on: June 23, 2005, 10:30:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Yeah, I know.

Just bums me that we're going to get a spawling town with a rotten core.

More places to hunt changed into "3Br, 2.5BA, 2 Car, fenced yard" because some people are tardlets. ;)


yup know what you mean.  That happens in almost every city.  The downtown decayse and suburbia sprawls and spreads.  Either way I'd still rather have the choice to be a tardlet then be mandated one by a city council with the "people's" best interests in mind.