Author Topic: Taking on the fast-zoom guys  (Read 786 times)

Offline Big G

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Taking on the fast-zoom guys
« on: June 27, 2005, 12:59:58 PM »
Say your flying around in your spit V or Seafire/Zeke etc, you get a guy in a pony,190 or La all over you doing loops  and climbing and diving on you.
What's the best way to try and get an edge ?
Dive and start going in circles and force the turn ? or just hope that the guy gets bored and goes after someone else!

Offline Drano

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Re: Taking on the fast-zoom guys
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2005, 03:55:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Big G
Say your flying around in your spit V or Seafire/Zeke etc, you get a guy in a pony,190 or La all over you doing loops  and climbing and diving on you.
What's the best way to try and get an edge ?
Dive and start going in circles and force the turn ? or just hope that the guy gets bored and goes after someone else!




In the situation you're describing its tough for the generally slower, lower plane to turn the tables. Reason being the other guy has the ability (as he's gonna be in a  much faster plane than you) to simply turn and run----err----extend if he finds he's blown his initial height advantage. He can either rebuild his advantage and start over or just go looking for easier prey--because he can.

What you can do is to continually evade his passes hopeing he'll just get greedy(which happens) and put himself into a co-E situation just long enough for you to blast him. That situation might only be a fleeting moment so you'll have to develope a sense of it. If your timing's off he can just simply hit the gas and get out of dodge. He'll dive out, use his speed and be gone. That's just how it is when fighting a faster plane.

Generally as a rule the turny planes like the SpitV and Zero are kinda slow especially relative the faster planes like the FW's and Ponies but they don't turn nearly as well. Trick is if you're in a turny plane to get the fast plane turning. Fight your fight. Don't fight his fight which is the energy fight(unless you're Leviathan). You don't want to get tangled up in a verticle fight as generally that fast plane has the ability to go up in the verticle better than you due to his speed advantage. If you try to follow him up chances are you'll stall out under him and become the wallowing target he's tried to make of you. This is called "rope the dope".(sound familiar?) So don't follow one of those planes straight up in a plane like that. They are also better suited to diving away as they have a much higher top end speed than you do and generally handle much better at higher speeds too. Keep the fight slow if you can. Slow as you can make it. Low as you can make it. Take away as much of his ability to extend as you can. If he's on the deck he can't dive away. Keep him as close as you can.

In the end it comes down to the pilot more so than the plane. If the fast plane driver knows his stuff he'll simply refuse to get low and slow and turning with you. Nothing wrong with that--he's flying his plane to its strengths which is smart flying. If he's not and does you'll get him. Why? Because he's fighting YOUR fight now. He's made a mistake and you should be right there to remind him.

      Drano
"Drano"
80th FS "Headhunters"

S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning In A Bottle)

FSO flying with the 412th Friday Night Volunteer Group

Offline Big G

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Taking on the fast-zoom guys
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2005, 04:22:31 PM »
Thanks for that !
Just tangled with numerous fighters at 2k over V23, managed to get a 38, a pony and got a spit 9 before I went down in flames lol
I nearly fell for climbing after the other guy in the A8 but manged to avoid temptation!!, think it was him that got me in the end.
Cheers
Big G

Offline Soda

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Taking on the fast-zoom guys
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2005, 05:05:03 PM »
Another option to consider is to force the fight to a turn-fight or Co-E situation by baiting the enemy into a trap.  This tends to work best with a slower aircraft that has good high speed handling (like a FM2, F4F4, F6F, etc).  The enemy will expect you to turn-defense so you may be able to catch them in a trap.

Example:
Here's a classic, 10K Typhoon vs 8K F6F.  If you let him BnZ you the chances are he'll eventually get you. He's dictating the fight AND the F6F is not a great E generator so you'll never get up to him. Change the fight and regain control.  Start a shallow dive to build up some speed.  He'll likely follow because he sees it as weakness and you are giving up your 6 position on him.  Increase the angle of dive, building speed, you want to keep him on the hook so allow him some closure.  This will make him think he will eventually get that nice 6 shot.  What he doesn't realize is that it's a trap.  By both of you diving you are both turning altitude into speed.  Eventually you hit a drag limit where you max out on speed.  If this is the case, then if you are at similar altitudes and similar speeds then you have similar energy situations.  His extra altitude may have helped him initially to get closure but he just hits his drag wall sooner.  If he's smart he may see the trap closing, if not he'll press on for the attack (depending on how well you set the bait).  Avoid his attack, in this case utilize your vastly superior roll at high speed (he probably can't roll at all).  2 options exist then, he will either try and extend OR he will zoom up thinking he'll just re-initiate a BnZ.  Well, the extension is an issue, you barrel roll to increase your path so that he passes you (a classic overshoot) and thus lock right onto his tail.. his speed is not vastly superior to yours so his advantage there is lost and you can take your shot.  If he zooms, he may forget that you can also zoom and your kinetic energy situation (mass and speed) is very similar to his now, he wasted a lot of energy trying to maintain closure.  You zoom up also, him thinking he's got you in a classic Rope-a-Done (as described by Drano) but in fact you have similar energy situations and can get up to him, either to pop him at the top or to level off at the top and face him in an advantageous turning situation (where your low speed turn is superior to his).  He may dive away, or try, but then he probably doesn't have sufficient excess energy to escape before you put a couple of rounds into him.

This is a bit tough to master but can be highly effective.  You really need to manage what is happening and keep the bait hooked but know exactly the instant the enemy changes his mind or is pulling the trigger.  Any mistake in timing is bad news but done correctly the enemy might be thinking "Damn, how'd he do that!"

This is just an example though, you'll see some guys in the MA use it on occation, generally some very experienced ones.

Offline AmRaaM

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Taking on the fast-zoom guys
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2005, 08:21:46 PM »
u cant fight them, unless they get stupid and forget what plane they are in.

Offline dedalos

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Taking on the fast-zoom guys
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2005, 08:21:41 AM »
What Soda said, or

assuming this is about killing them and not just not dieing, give them your six.  Best way to get them is have them overshoot.  This works great in a P40:  Start a shalow dive and slight right turn (oh, timing is everything).  The 190 driver, being a 190 driver thinks you are running so he will follow as fast as he can.  As he gets close, titen up your turn to make it hard for him to hit.  Around D600, drop flaps (p40 can do that at 350, if I remember), pull up and roll left.  If he was smart he ran away.  If he pulled up to regain alt or to follow, you are on his six and if you timed it right you will have a few seconds for a shot.  Rince and repeat.

There is no reason a very fast plane should hit you.  They will have to slow down a bit to get a good shot.  Make them miss a couple of times but have them think it was close, and on every pass they will slow down a little more so they can pull that little more lead they need.
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.