P47N Perk Debate

[YUCCA]

Originally posted by ghi
perked or not i don't care, but should be disabled for YUCCA:)

Nyuck Nyuck Nyuck

[AKFokerFoder+]

All this hype on the new Jug reminds me a lot of the kee-rap that was going on before the KI84 was introduced.

The KI84 didn't dominate the arena, and I doubt if the new jug will either.

The high top end speed with the awesome 8 guns package may help it will see more use than a KI84.

More Jugs in the arena would give more diversity.

[Reschke]

Honestly speaking and no I am not reading through all the P-47 turns better or just as good crud.........THIS IS ONE PLANE THAT COULD HAVE WAITED!!!!

We need....yes we need other planes aside from more US rides....I would say that we need planes from the Soviets, Japanese, Germans and British before we need another US based ride.

Please HT and crew I know its too late to change at this stage but at least tell us that several new rides for the lesser countries are at least in the works/thought process.

[Reschke]

Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
More Jugs in the arena would give more diversity.

Nope it equals more US aircraft that aren't needed. Just what exactly does the 47N bring to the table that the other P-47s don't have? I know it was fast but in the grand scheme of the game is speed really going to do anything other than get you to the fight faster so you can die and hop back in the same plane again that much quicker. Hell for that reason lets push for the Do-335 for Germany.

[culero]

Originally posted by Reschke
snip
get you to the fight faster so you can die and hop back in the same plane again that much quicker.

You been spying on me?

culero

[Magoo]

Honestly speaking and no I am not reading through all the P-47 turns better or just as good crud.........THIS IS ONE PLANE THAT COULD HAVE WAITED!!!!

Reschke, the reason we got a new Jug variant (and not new models altogether) is because it was an easy add. They were already redoing the P47/P51 line to the AH2 standards. I'll be surprised if we don't also get something else from that line when the new load comes out. When they re-did the 38s we got 2 new variants. This P47-N is simply some candy they're throwing to the masses because it's cheap (so to speak). I'm damn glad to see it personally, but then I fly the american stuff most of the time.

Didn't they say the Spits/109s are next up for getting done to AH2 standards? I bet we get a few new variants then too, just because it's an easy add. I'll take what they can do in that scenario even though I don't fly spits or 109s much.

Magoo

[Wilbus]

Never mind, found it in another thread.

I am damn glad for any new plane we get.

[bozon]

Isn't it obvious that HT added the new P47N just to spite the LW fans?

It works very well

Bozon

[Magoo]

Heck, I wouldn't care if they added another La7:rolleyes:

Magoo

[Kweassa]

Why would the LW crowd ever get spite when already every USAAF plane outmaneuvers every LW plane(the E-4 and F-4 being exception) with those combat flaps creaking up and down?

 It's not like there was ever a chance to outmaneuver 4~5 ton US planes that turn better than planes that weigh less than half that, in the first place, regardless of  AH1 or AH2.

[Brooke]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Why would the LW crowd ever get spite when already every USAAF plane outmaneuvers every LW plane(the E-4 and F-4 being exception) with those combat flaps creaking up and down?

 It's not like there was ever a chance to outmaneuver 4~5 ton US planes that turn better than planes that weigh less than half that, in the first place, regardless of  AH1 or AH2.

First, to me, it seems roll rate is important in outmaneuvering.  The FW 190 is peerless in this regard.

Second, in steady-state, stall-fight turning, the FW 190A-8 (and probably the rest of the 190 series) outturns the P-47D; the Bf 109G-6 outturns the P-47D, the P-51D, and the P-38J with no flaps, and is about even with the P-38J when it has 1 notch of flaps deployed; the Bf 109E-4 outturns the P-47D, P-51D, and P-38J with or without 1 notch of flaps.

As for turn performance of heavy vs. light planes, it's not just a matter of weight.  Take a small plane, give it high wing loading, and it isn't going to do well in steady-state, stall-turn conditions.  It's the whole package that counts, including wing loading, lift/drag, and so on.  The B5N2 turns as well as the A6M2 Zero, which is to say much better than any American or German fighter.  The C-47 turns much better than P-38's, P-51's, P-47's, FW 190's, and a little better than Bf 109's, La-7's, and almost as well as Spit I's, and N1K2's.

There seems to be the opinion that HTC biases performance in favor of US aircraft or that turn performance of US aircraft is unrealistically good.  I just go and test the steady-state turn performance.  The real stats don't back up that opinion.

Also, I would bet money that HTC models these aircraft based on flight-test data and mathematical aerodynamic models that are pretty accurate -- not based on someone's opinion without any data to back it up or based on someone's feeling that one aircraft should be better because he likes that aircraft.

[Wilbus]

First, to me, it seems roll rate is important in outmaneuvering. The FW 190 is peerless in this regard.  

Second, in steady-state, stall-fight turning, the FW 190A-8 (and probably the rest of the 190 series) outturns the P-47D;

Whatever you are smoking stop with it!

190 A8 doesn't stand a chance in a turnfight against any US fighter, or even any other plane in the game for that matter. The A8 is THE worst turning fighter in the game.

As for roll rate, although it is important it is not as important as turn rate as in AH.

[Widewing]

Here's the straight "skinny" gents, take it as gospel.

There will be no perk price on the P-47N. Why, because while it will dominate above 25k, it will not do so down low. Climb is not better than the D-11. Deck speed will be in the 363 to 367 mph range, not fast enough to out-distance the faster low-level types.

If flown with low fuel and 6 guns, maneuverability will be better than the D-40 (turning and roll rate), but not substantially so.

Gentlemen, if the P-51D, 190D-9, 109G-10 and La-7 are not perked, there's no justification whatsoever to perk the N model Jug. All we will have is a faster bomb truck for the suicide shed bombers.

My regards,

Widewing

[Brooke]

Originally posted by Wilbus
Whatever you are smoking stop with it!

190 A8 doesn't stand a chance in a turnfight against any US fighter, or even any other plane in the game for that matter. The A8 is THE worst turning fighter in the game.

As for roll rate, although it is important it is not as important as turn rate as in AH.

Here's the data for 3 revolutions, steady state, stall horn on, 50% max fuel load, full power, 500 ft. altitude.  The data below is repeatable to within about a second or two.

P-47D-40:  73 seconds
P-47D-40, 1 notch of flaps:  72 seconds
P-47D-25:  72 seconds
FW 190A-8:  68 seconds

The FW 190A-8 turns better than the P-47D under these conditions, as proven by the data, although clearly not by a large amount.  Still, if you don't believe my numbers, try it yourself and post your data.  It's always possible that I made an error in my data, but I doubt it -- I was careful in gathering it.

As for roll rate, yes, turn rate is often more important in the main arena.  But I didn't say that roll was more important or as important.  I said (1) that roll is a non-zero part of what counts for maneuvering (which, by your statement, you agree with) and (2) that the FW has better roll rate than US aircraft (which I assume you agree with).  My implication is that, because 1 and 2 are true, it follows incontrovertibly that the FW is not inferior in all respects of maneuvering compared to US aircraft.

Now, if you do want to disucss the importance of roll rate (which was not my point above), while what you say is true in the main arena, I would say that roll rate sometimes is more important than stall-fighting turn rate in scenarios.  In Rangoon, '42, the much superior roll rate of P-40's at speed compared to Zeros (even though the Zero has far superior low-speed turn rate) had a large effect on the outcome of engagements.  In other scenarios I've flown in, the much superior roll rate of FW 190A-4's and FW 190A-8's compared to P-38's (even though the P-38 has far superior low-speed turn rate) had a large effect on the outcome of engagements.  A lot of these involve the faster-rolling aircraft attacking bombers defended by the slower-rolling aircraft.  The slower-rolling aircraft had enormous difficulty stopping the faster-rolling aircraft because of that.  Thus, in those situations, I would very much rather have a fast-rolling aircraft as the bomber defender, even if it turned worse than the bomber attacker at low speed.  Such situations are common in scenarios.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Brooke
Here's the data for 3 revolutions, steady state, stall horn on, 50% max fuel load, full power, 500 ft. altitude.  The data below is repeatable to within about a second or two.

P-47D-40:  73 seconds
P-47D-40, 1 notch of flaps:  72 seconds
P-47D-25:  72 seconds
FW 190A-8:  68 seconds

The FW 190A-8 turns better than the P-47D under these conditions, as proven by the data, although clearly not by a large amount.  Still, if you don't believe my numbers, try it yourself and post your data.  It's always possible that I made an error in my data, but I doubt it -- I was careful in gathering it.

Careful? Too careful, I think.

50% fuel, full ammo, max power (WEP), no flaps whatsoever. Altitude between 300 and 400 feet. Three complete turns (turning left). I flew each type to the edge of the limit where each would snap-spin.

Fw 190A-5: 56 seconds
Fw 190A-8: 58 seconds
P-47D-40: 56 seconds
P-51D: 54 seconds
P-38J: 52 seconds

If it's taking you more than 70 seconds to turn 3 revolutions, you are nowhere near the limits of either aircraft. For that matter, I'm sure I could have reduced the times by a second or two if I ran a few practice runs prior.

Both the P-47 and P-51 can deploy one notch of flaps at 400 mph, meaning that the Fws will find themselves even further behind the 8-ball.

By the way, the P-38L rolls faster than the Fw 190 above 350 mph, with the difference becoming larger as speed goes up.

Wilbus is correct, the 190A-8 will not out-turn any P-47 (especially the D-11) even without the P-47 using flaps. However, using flaps in the Jug allows it to gain a significant edge.

My regards,

Widewing