Author Topic: So who won the war? (Read 2729 times)

Skydancer · « **Reply #30 on:** July 05, 2005, 06:52:53 PM »

Yeah I did. Good point.

6GunUSMC · « **Reply #31 on:** July 05, 2005, 06:57:15 PM »

yeah, we conquered a nation, made our mistakes along the way, but without us there would have been no aresenal of democracy, and even if hitler had been beaten solely by the soviets and british, the soviets would have ALL of europe now

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #32 on:** July 05, 2005, 06:58:42 PM »

2 cents by someone who lived through it...

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...we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.

Captain Virgil Hilts · « **Reply #33 on:** July 05, 2005, 07:11:02 PM »

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Originally posted by straffo
Some points :

even if I hate siding with the brits (our traditionnal enemy you know ) at least Chamberlain tried something and I'm not sure he had a lot of option giving his health and the hope lot of people had to not see a second world wa r(perfectly illustrated by your last sentence ).

It's also easy to say the European have 8 to 10 century of war when living in a country about 200 years old.
But as lot of Americans I guess you have possibly Euro blood and possibly are as guilty as me of whe happened 300 year go
(seriously this idea crack me up )

Hehe. I guess you could say Chamberlain tried something, despite the fact that it obviously was not going to work.

Yeah, we've only been around 229 years. OTOH, how many of the wars we've been in were started in one way or another by European powers, especially in the 20th Century? My point was, for centuries, Europe has been engulfed in wars of conquest, and that did not change until World War II ended. No, the US is not lilly white, far from it. In fact, I think we should also bear some of the blame for allowing World War II to escalate. We should have prepared for war earlier and better, and done something before we were attacked.

OTOH, you have to remember that MOST of the citizens of the US had LEFT Europe, and wanted little to do with Europe, especially when it came to being drawn into ANOTHER European war of conquest. The idea that Europeans cornered the market on being war weary after the 1st World War is a little facetious. Both times we came in late, but we were still there and it still cost us dearly.

Yes, I do have German blood, and also a little Irish blood, in my veins. My Dad's father came over from Germany a few years before World War I. Unlike some, I do not blame the descendants for what the ancestors did. Just like I find the notion of blaming white US citizens of today for slavery absurd, I find the notion of blaming those Europeans outside the governments of the European nations involved (much less the Europeans not even born then) for World War II absurd.

Skydancer · « **Reply #34 on:** July 05, 2005, 07:13:37 PM »

Yep very much agree there.

Captain Virgil Hilts · « **Reply #35 on:** July 05, 2005, 07:14:19 PM »

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Originally posted by Seeker
Did you miss Thrawn's post? Great Britain may have limited manpower; Imperial Britain did not.

Want to give the yanks a hard time? Ask 'em where our training fees are for schooling 'em in Africa. Allies that are mere meat on the table for one's enemies are hardly any help at all.....

Yeah, and when the US Army got it's prettythang kicked at Kasserine Pass who was in command? And what happened when a good US general was put in command of the same troops against the same enemy?

Ripsnort · « **Reply #36 on:** July 05, 2005, 07:19:29 PM »

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Originally posted by Monk
Pretty good job too.

Skydancer · « **Reply #37 on:** July 05, 2005, 07:19:54 PM »

Wasn't Ike in command of the US troops at Kasserine? Or did I get that wrong.

Besides without El Alemain ( my spelling stinks ) there would have been no Kasserine pass battle to fight. No Operation torch no deal at all in Africa.

Captain Virgil Hilts · « **Reply #38 on:** July 05, 2005, 07:34:18 PM »

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Originally posted by Skydancer
Wasn't Ike in command of the US troops at Kasserine? Or did I get that wrong.

Besides without El Alemain ( my spelling stinks ) there would have been no Kasserine pass battle to fight. No Operation torch no deal at all in Africa.

You got it wrong, ALL wrong. US troops at Kasserine Pass were under BRITISH command. Ike replaced the British commander with Patton.

By the way, Monty got his prettythang handed to him until he got intelligence breaks. So long as Rommel and Monty were on equal terms as far as intelligence and counter intelligence, Monty was getting whipped.

Pei · « **Reply #39 on:** July 05, 2005, 07:56:31 PM »

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Originally posted by Seeker
But Skydancer; the critique is valid.

Who else can you blame for WWII

Germany. Last time I checked Britain didn't invade Czechoslovakia and Poland. Nobody forced Germany inot starting the war, the Germany goverment decided it wanted one (just as the Germans and the Austrians decided they wanted one in 1914).

Now you can certainly blame Britain and France for not doing everything they could have to prevent it. However it's easy for the USA to be aggressive after the fact, particularly as it didn't have to suffer through four years and millions dead in the previous war.

Seeker · « **Reply #40 on:** July 05, 2005, 07:56:37 PM »

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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Yeah, and when the US Army got it's prettythang kicked at Kasserine Pass who was in command?

ummm, Rommel?

Pei · « **Reply #41 on:** July 05, 2005, 07:58:07 PM »

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Originally posted by lazs2
britan didn't lose anything except things they never owned in the first place.

Yes because the USA originally owned all the central and west of the current country: no-one lived there and no people were killed, displaced and generally oppressed in it's taking...............

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #42 on:** July 05, 2005, 08:04:02 PM »

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Originally posted by Pei
Yes because the USA originally owned all the central and west of the current country: no-one lived there and no people were killed, displaced and generally oppressed in it's taking...............

So where do you stand on Austrailia's historical policy vis a vis the Aboriginies?

Hangtime · « **Reply #43 on:** July 05, 2005, 08:09:34 PM »

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Originally posted by Pei
Germany. Last time I checked Britain didn't invade Czechoslovakia and Poland. Nobody forced Germany inot starting the war, the Germany goverment decided it wanted one (just as the Germans and the Austrians decided they wanted one in 1914).

Now you can certainly blame Britain and France for not doing everything they could have to prevent it. However it's easy for the USA to be aggressive after the fact, particularly as it didn't have to suffer through four years and millions dead in the previous war.

Jeezus freakin cripes.. we bailed Europe out in THAT war too. Who you gonna blame fer starting or award the winners prize to for that one? Enh? Check yer cottin pickin brain at the door?

The USofA that you guys just looooove ta rag on over the course of the last 100 years has stepped up and saved yer collective bacon more times than you've saved ours.. or your own. And, after we got done cleaning up yer mess, we handed back the keys to the 'victors' and vanquished alike and let yah go about ruining yer lil cabbage patches again.

Yah thankless whiners.

Pei · « **Reply #44 on:** July 05, 2005, 08:27:28 PM »

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Originally posted by Hangtime
Jeezus freakin cripes.. we bailed Europe out in THAT war too. Who you gonna blame fer starting or award the winners prize to for that one? Enh? Check yer cottin pickin brain at the door?

The USofA that you guys just looooove ta rag on over the course of the last 100 years has stepped up and saved yer collective bacon more times than you've saved ours.. or your own. And, after we got done cleaning up yer mess, we handed back the keys to the 'victors' and vanquished alike and let yah go about ruining yer lil cabbage patches again.

Yah thankless whiners.

I don't love to rag on the USA, though many here do, and I appreciate the fact that neither war would have been won without the USA, and the that the USA took the major part in the second one. I along with many other Europenas will always remain grateful for the sacrifice and valour of the USA during the 20th century. This does not mean that I accept the often arrogant and ignorant remarks made by some US citizens (on this BBS and elsewhere).

I fail to understand why the UK gets the blame for starting either war nor do I understand how many on this board fail to appreciate the sacrifice in blood, money and power the UK made nor the fact the the UK began making those sacrifices long before the USA got involved on either occasion.

The UK did not have to declare war on Germany in either 1914 nor 1939. This would have meant accepting Germany as the major European power (and one of the first superpowers), but on neither occasion was their any direct threat to the UK or the Empire. The world would almost certainly be a worse place than it is now but the UK could well have been better off (and more of my family would be alive for that matter).