Author Topic: B17 Gunship  (Read 2158 times)

Offline AdmRose

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B17 Gunship
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2005, 02:32:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tails
As mentioned above, a B-40 with weapons and full ammunition weighs in about the same as a B-17 with full bombload. Even with a lighter ammo load, I would think a B-17 might not be able to support the weight of both the gunship's gunload AND bombs.


We're talking 16 guns, a fully loaded B-17G carried 12 - 4 more .50s plus ammo for them isn't going to break the bank.

Offline SMIDSY

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B17 Gunship
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2005, 04:46:56 PM »
adm, you are underestimating the exess load added by ammunition.

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2005, 05:01:07 PM »
AdmRose, add the weight of chin turret and ammo because the gunship was a conversion of the standard B-17F then in service, which was not the B-17G.

The gunships also carried more ammo than the standard positions on the regular B-17s.

The ammunition load was over 11,000 rounds making the YB-40 well over 10,000 pounds (4,500 kg) heavier then that of a fully loaded B-17F.

Offline AmRaaM

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« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2005, 12:01:37 AM »
gunships as escorts was dropped because the weight of the extra guns and ammo left them as stragglers once the other ships dropped their bombs....in other words they ended up being the ones needing extra protection.

Offline Emmanuel Gustin

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More guns?
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2005, 02:43:05 PM »
Just adding more guns probably might not have made  much difference. The B-17 was designed at a time well before the air corps had experience with operating bombers in the presence of modern enemy fighters, and at the time when armament standards were still being developed (and  enforced on the manufacturers, not without difficulty).

As a result, the B-17's armament was a rather mixed affair, even on the redesigned E series and later models. The Sperry dorsal was a good  turret, and the Sperry-Briggs ball turret was perhaps the best ventral turret in existence. The tail gun installation was primitive but effective. The waist and radio room gun installations were primitive and ineffective; their gunners faced a nearly impossible task aiming their guns manually at targets that passed fleetingly through their field of view. And the weak nose gun armament, and lack of armour there,  was a major vulnerability of the B-17E and F.

That some redesign of stations and redistribution of guns could reduced weight and crew while actually improving the defense, was proven by the "Project Bovingdon" B-17, but this would have involved major redesign and an interruption of production.

Meanwhile, varying unofficial modifications were made to some aircraft: Including some that had 20-mm cannon as nose guns or tail guns. The nose gun was a one-off as far as I know, because the recoil damaged the nose structure and because the gunner found it difficult to handle; the tail cannon were more common and usually placed at the  rear of the formation to deter enemy fighters with rockets or long-range guns.

The claims made by bombers' gunners for the destruction of enemy fighters were probably around a factor 10 too high, for numerous tactical, technical and psychological reasons. Many people knew this at the time and very few people believe these numbers now; but at the time they had propaganda value.

Offline HoHun

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Re: More guns?
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2005, 03:02:16 PM »
Hi Emmanuel,

>the "Project Bovingdon" B-17, but this would have involved major redesign and an interruption of production.

That sounds interesting - what were the special features of the Bovingdon B-17?

>Including some that had 20-mm cannon as nose guns or tail guns.

The Luftwaffe preferred 20 mm cannon as nose defense because they were able to inflict telling damage in the short firing time available during a head-on attack. They weight penalty wasn't that bad as the cannon received only small loads anyway.

The longer range of cannon compared to MG also played a role, just as in the USAAF considerations.

>The claims made by bombers' gunners for the destruction of enemy fighters were probably around a factor 10 too high, for numerous tactical, technical and psychological reasons.

When I saw this thread, I tried to find a table I saved a while ago, with a summary "enemy aircraft destroyed by the USAAF by month". Unfortunately, I couldn't find it anymore.

What was striking about the table was that from one certain month to the next, there was a decline of Luftwaffe fighters killed by bomber guns by a factor of (by memory) ten. I'm pretty sure that marked the point when more restrictive confirmation rules were introduced, making the kill statistics much more accurate than before.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Emmanuel Gustin

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Re: Re: More guns?
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2005, 11:50:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
That sounds interesting - what were the special features of the Bovingdon B-17?


Installation of Consolidated nose and tail turrets, with the bombardier's position moved to a lower nose fairing and the radio operator moved to the nose to operate also the nose turret. (The aircraft had been built as a B-17E.)

Replacement of the Sperry dorsal turret by the lighter Martin turret.

Changes to the ball turret to make it roomier, more comfortable, and more reliable; the changes also allowed the gunner to wear a parachute inside the turret.

Deletion of the waist guns and radio room guns, and introduction of an open, powered mount for twin .50 guns on the dorsal spine instead.

Improved oxygen system with a larger supply (5 hours for the turret gunners instead of 2) and twin lines to every position to provide redundancy in case of combat damage.

The aircraft was 1000 lb lighter than a B-17F and had a better c.g. position, 28% of the mean aerodynamic chord instead of 31%. This, plus folding bomb bay doors, improved performance.

Offline Charge

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B17 Gunship
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2005, 03:42:24 PM »
"if you cant hit em... ADD MORE GUNS!"

I think that is the only way to increase hit probability.

Does anybody have the training material for bomber gunners where the dispersion for different gun mounts are pictured? See that and the powered turrets are making sense over the hand held guns...

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Offline MiloMorai

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B17 Gunship
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2005, 05:03:57 AM »
Testing done by the USAAF found that the bullet pattern during ground testing had the following results for 12 rounds to 600yds:

For the B-17:

ball turret > dia. 15' - 8.3mils
upper turret > dia. 21' - 11.7mils
chin turret > dia. 23' - 12.6 mils
waist(closed) dia. 26' - 14.3mils
side nose > dia. 34' - 18.7mils
tail turret > dia 45' - 25mils

For the B-24:

ball turret > dia. 15' - 8.3mils
upper turret > dia. 20' - 11.2mils
nose turret > dia. 23' - 12.9mils (Emerson)
nose turret > dia. 35' - 19.3mils (Motor Prod.)
waist(closed) dia. 23' - 12.9mils
waist(open) dia. 63' - 35.6mils
tail turret > dia 35' - 19.3mils


taken from: "Gunner" ISBN 1-55046-332-2

Offline Furball

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« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2005, 01:27:47 PM »
I WANT BOMBERS!

I WANT BOMBERS WITH FRICKEN LAZERBEAMS ON THEIR HEADS.

I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know.
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Offline Krusty

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« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2005, 03:03:56 PM »
lol! Funny Furball, funny... Just don't go making any mini-you's... We couldn't take multiples of you :)

Offline BaDkaRmA158Th

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B17 Gunship
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2007, 07:49:25 PM »
Any pictures of the Project Bovingdon b17?
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Offline AquaShrimp

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B17 Gunship
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2007, 01:52:51 PM »
For whatever reason, no bomber in World War II was really capable of defending itself.  Hand held and turretted aerial guns just don't have the accuracy required.

The U.S. started off with the right concept in the 1930s.  It was making bombers that flew faster than any contemporary fighter.  But this changed as bulky and heavy turrets were added to bombers, along with the near useless waste guns.

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2007, 02:53:52 PM »
At a time when no true long-range escort fighters were available, this wasn't really a bad idea.  The problems wrought by the extra weight didn't become evident until after they were deployed.

In any event, the only extra firepower the B-17 needed was in the nose to ward off head-on passes by German fighters.  This was, of course, remedied by the addition of a chin turret to the B-17G.

The arguments for extra firepower became moot with the arrival of the P-51 Mustang.

Offline Airscrew

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« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2007, 03:15:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AquaShrimp
The U.S. started off with the right concept in the 1930s.  It was making bombers that flew faster than any contemporary fighter.  But this changed as bulky and heavy turrets were added to bombers, along with the near useless waste guns.

Aqua i think your logic here is flawed, but I dont know where to start.