Author Topic: A Troubling Poll (Read 5847 times)

Sandman · « **Reply #45 on:** September 17, 2001, 04:58:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying:

You have the right idea, Sandman, but the wrong Amendment. The one that really applies here is the 14th Amendment. Section 1 of that Amendment states:

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

The last part is the important one; it basically means that laws must be applied equally to all citizens regardless of race or ethnicity. It's very likely that singling out Arab-Americans violates the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment.

OTOH, this Amendment makes it clear that equal protection applies to citizens only. So it may be possible (unless some Supreme Court cases I'm not aware of expanded the scope of the equal protection clause) that non-citizens can be singled out as security risks.

-- Todd/DMF

Thanx DMF... that's what I was thinking. As for non-citizens, single them out, I don't care.

Were any of the hijackers U.S. citizens? I rather doubt it.

The U.S. has made this same mistake in the name of security, Manzanar and other internment camps created after the attack on Pearl Harbor to hold Japanese Americans for no other reason than ethnicity. In 1988 President Reagan signed the Civil Liberties Act of 1988, which provided for reparations for surviving interns. The following year President George Bush issued a formal apology for the actions of the U.S.

We were wrong then and you're wrong now if you think it's okay to treat citizens this way.

[ 09-17-2001: Message edited by: Sandman_SBM ]

Kratzer · « **Reply #46 on:** September 17, 2001, 04:59:00 PM »

Nice try, but you might want to spend more time reading and thinking than reacting.

I'm sadly aware the race IS used as the basis for the opinions of many people.

What IS is not always what is RIGHT.

easymo · « **Reply #47 on:** September 17, 2001, 05:02:00 PM »

I read somewhere once that the greatest number of losses in the intel community, during WW2, were Japanese Americans. They died while gathering info on Japan.

It has been said that the Intelligence community will bare the brunt of this war. Who do you think will do this work. I don't see blond haired, blue eyed, Nordic types sliding up next to these middle eastern. It will like as not take Americans of middle eastern decent to do this.

We can get back to our sibling rivalry when this is over. Right now we need to close ranks like the family that we are.

[ 09-17-2001: Message edited by: easymo ]

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #48 on:** September 17, 2001, 05:11:00 PM »

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Originally posted by Kratzer:
Nice try, but you might want to spend more time reading and thinking than reacting.

Thinking about what? Ways to better secure our airports? Our government buildings? Tighten up security around the nation? I don't know what you mean by 'nice try' nor do I have any idea what else I should read and think before 'reacting'. By reacting, I assume you mean pointing out the obvious.

Quote

Originally posted by Kratzer:
What IS is not always what is RIGHT.

Okay, but what is more right. Searching natural born citizens of the US or searching those that are not natural born or are not even citizens?

What makes more sense to you, searching a Mexican then relentlessly interrogating him after you find out he is an illegal immigrant here just trying to earn a living with a toejam job that you nor I nor anyone else on this board OBVIOUSLY does not want or have? Or searching and relentlessly interrogating someone of Middle Eastern decent who is here illegally and is more likely to be associated with a terrorist group than the Mexican fellow?

I don't pretend to know the answers, but it's a waste of resources, time and money to search everyone's baggage as opposed to those who happen to be of the same ethnicity as those who perpetrated this crime.

You think this is bigotry because we single out a particular ethnic group? I'd say so, *IF* last Tuesday went by as a normal day. Now it's simply a safety measure.

I don't think anyone is saying "move them into internment camps", "tap their phone lines", "strip search them and then cavity search them if they sneeze!"

But certainly pay more attention to their luggage and their forms of identification than say an african american or a mexican.
-SW

takeda · « **Reply #49 on:** September 17, 2001, 05:12:00 PM »

Apparently blinded by late events, many americans seem to think that hijacking airliners to crash them into american landmarks is a natural, genetically brought behaviour of arab people or a mandate of the muslim religion.

However the will to commit suicide, taking many lives with you in the proccess, and getting the most possible attention can be noticed in people of all sorts.

For example, let's take on white male american bussinessmen... not quite McVeigh nor any islamic fanatic:

"Samuel Byck, a failed businessman with a history of mental illness, was investigated by the Secret Service in 1972 on the basis of reports that he had threatened President Nixon. In 1974, he hatched a plan called "Operation Pandora's Box" to hijack a commercial airliner and crash it into the Executive Mansion. On February 22, less than a week after the Preston incident, Byck went to Baltimore/Washington International Airport carrying a pistol and a gasoline bomb. He forced his way onto a Delta flight destined for Atlanta by shooting a guard at the security checkpoint. He entered the cockpit and ordered the crew to take off. After the crew informed him that they could not depart without removing the wheel blocks, Byck shot the pilot twice and the co-pilot three times (the co-pilot died). Police outside the airplane shot into the cockpit and hit Byck twice. Byck fell to the floor, put the revolver to his head, and killed himself."

United States Secret Service.
PUBLIC REPORT
OF THE
WHITE HOUSE SECURITY REVIEW

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #50 on:** September 17, 2001, 05:21:00 PM »

Takeda, you are mistaken.

"Apparently blinded by late events, many americans seem to think that hijacking airliners to crash them into american landmarks is a natural, genetically brought behaviour of arab people or a mandate of the muslim religion."

No one said anything along these lines. However, you seem to think that we are blinded by recent events. Actually, our eyes are wide open. No one is assuming or thinking that it's only arabic or muslim people. That's just ignorance speaking on your behalf, we know who the perpetrators of this attack were. They are a terrorist group, and unfortunately for muslim nations they happen to be psychotic extremist muslims.

Does this mean that all muslims are likely to do this? NO! But it leaves SOME as suspect, which in turn means that all have to be searched to find those few.

It's plain as day to see this, but I guess that's because I'm a bigot according to these people.
-SW

Kratzer · « **Reply #51 on:** September 17, 2001, 05:24:00 PM »

*sigh*

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #52 on:** September 17, 2001, 05:29:00 PM »

Look Kratzer, I have no idea how you can beat around the bush to appease to people. It seems so spineless.

We know EXACTLY which ethnic group these terrorists are from.

Does this mean that there is a chance of turning up some of these terrorists in the african-american community? Doubt it. How about the Hispanic community? Hmmm don't think so. Maybe the Italian community? Nope!

Again, I will restate it: We know EXACTLY which ethnic group these sub-humans come from. Now we just have to search through the innocent to find the guilty.

But- this of course makes me a bigot, right?
-SW

Sandman · « **Reply #53 on:** September 17, 2001, 05:32:00 PM »

If the shoe fits...

takeda · « **Reply #54 on:** September 17, 2001, 05:38:00 PM »

And it's clear to see that you missed my point, so i'll rephrase it:
There are black muslims,
catholic arabs, and wicca asians... while you spend your time thinking who is the most suspicious, your average-dull looking-bored- bald-i'm nobody-guy could well be the madman, as I showed.

For your interest, you should notice that there are lots of poor, fanatized and trained as terrorists muslims in the Balcans. Many of them happen to have blue eyes and a blond hair.

Looking for the obvious bad guy based on a pointy nose and darker hair only works in Disney movies. The real world, sadly, is much more complicated.

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #55 on:** September 17, 2001, 06:19:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by takeda:
And it's clear to see that you missed my point, so i'll rephrase it:
There are black muslims,
catholic arabs, and wicca asians... while you spend your time thinking who is the most suspicious, your average-dull looking-bored- bald-i'm nobody-guy could well be the madman, as I showed.

Now that I see what you are saying, I understand.

However, I don't think that it is "muslims" we are after. It's this particular terrorist group and others that we are singling out. In order to get them all, we have to find them amongst their ethnic group. Like arabic, iranian, afghanistan, etc

I can't really explain it, other than to say we have to find the guilty amongst the innocent of the same ethnic (race) background.

Sandman, blow it out your ass. You don't know me, you only assume. And we all know what ASSumptions do to people.
-SW

Sandman · « **Reply #56 on:** September 17, 2001, 06:23:00 PM »

Hangtime · « **Reply #57 on:** September 17, 2001, 06:33:00 PM »

"...not one line of the constitution or the bill of rights should be construed as a mandate to commit national suicide... "

Our government WILL Screen EVERY passenger.. we ALL walk thru the gawdamned xray machine; right? And I got news for yah.. Security profiling is in place now.. put an arab in a car and send him into the que for the MidTown Tunnel RIGHT NOW, and I guarentee he'll be stopped and searched before he gets in there. I won't be.

Like it or not, our Customs Service, the US Post Office, the Border Patrol and Airport Security IS profiling, as is the highway patrol, the FBI, the police and every fediddlein citizen in this country.

And THATS reality NOW. It ain't "should we or shouldn't we"... WE ARE. period.

Get used to it. Oh; and BTW, I'll sleep a lil better on my next flight because of it. So will the arab-american sittin next to me... he ain't any more anxious than I am to become a smear on the pavement.

Sandman · « **Reply #58 on:** September 17, 2001, 06:39:00 PM »

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Originally posted by Hangtime:
"...not one line of the constitution or the bill of rights should be construed as a mandate to commit national suicide... "

What is this from?

ispar · « **Reply #59 on:** September 17, 2001, 06:45:00 PM »

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Originally posted by mrfish:
[QB]
it's unfortunate for patriotic arab americans, but so what? that's life...there isn't always a feel good solution, sometimes people just get a tough break.
QB]

Not to sound like a PC liberal know-nothing, but think about what you're saying, Mr. White American. You say that it's not a big deal - well, you don't have to worry about it, now do you? Who cares - it's them, not you! To make an omlette, you have to break a few eggs. As long as you're not one of the eggs, no problem, right?

That's too easy to say when you are not someone who is going to feel the results... wise up. If you were an Arab-American, you would be singing a different tune, I imagine.