Originally posted by Simaril
However, even when the defense was particualrly active, the story seemed to come down to our superior tactics and firepower vs teh Chinese' sheer numbers. While superior tactics and firepower can certainly kick the baddies' tushies, those numbers mean that any mistake can be punished mercilessly. The US Army in particular did not have its current polish, and even during the aggressive advance phase was pretty sloppy -- according to the marines who were there, not my interpretation. During Chosin, the nearby army units were essentially wiped out while the marines made their epic fighting withdrawal.
Well, it really should be it's own thread.
The NK's, which had pinned 8th Army in the Pusan perimeter in ~ 6 weeks from their initial invasion of the South, couldn't "close the deal".
However, MacArthur's 15 Sep 1950 Inchon landing pretty much reversed the way the war was going in short order. The "breakout" from Pusan commenced the next day and by 1 October.... 2 short weeks.... ROK I Corps is across the 38th parallel. By Oct 7 ROK II Corps is across the 38th; by 9 Oct 8th Army is across the 38th.
So as far as that goes, Inchon stands as a masterful stroke.
Then on Oct 25, the CCF jumps in because the NK's are essentially toast. The CCF did indeed come in huge numbers. They pretty much destroyed 2nd Inf Div as it covered the 8th Army withdrawal. Now was the Army so much inferior to the Marines? I don't know. You tell me how the Marines would have fared had they traded places with 2nd Inf Div.
The point, however, is that the massive invasion by CCF was halted and completely reversed by 18 Feb when the CCF withdrew along the entire central front. By 31 March, UN Forces are again on the 38th parallel. This while MacArthur still held command; in fact, UN Forces were about 10 miles North of the 38th with the Chinese still in a fighting retreat when MacArthur was removed from command on 11 April.
The Chinese and NK's made one more Spring Offensive and Van Fleet, commanding 8th Army made them pay a horrendous price for it. He then attacked and pushed the NK/CCF back past the Wyoming line, more then 10 miles North of the 38th. Van Fleet was ordered to halt offensive operations there. You can read Van Fleet's opinion of that order in a few places around the 'net.
...embittered by the strategy of limited war in Korea followed by the Truman administration and then by Eisenhower's administration, Van Fleet relinquished his command of the Eighth Army in February 1953, and two months later retired from the Army. On his return to the United States, he sparked controversy by charging that he had been denied the opportunity to achieve total victory in Korea by political decisions in Washington, D.C., and by the failure of Washington to provide him with adequate quantities of ammunition.
To sum up, here's what you said the caused me to post:
I seem to remember that the Chinese Army stopped "MacArthur's boys" more effectively than Truman ever could...
Army and Marine elements were practically spittin in the Yalu (hmmm... sounds like a classic big band tune....) after chasing the NKs up country. When the chinese came in, it was like trying to hold back water with your fingers.
MacArthur was blinded by his egotism, and sucked quite a few along with him.
[/b]
1. MacArthur, after reeling back under the initial huge Chinese onslaught, reversed the situation (again) and had pushed the Chinese and NK's back North of the 38th parallel in a little over three months, inflicting incredible casualties on the Chinese. Pretty amazing, really. At least IMO.
2. While there's no doubt 2nd Inf Div was sacrificed to save 8th Army, the withdrawal itself, including the Marines at Chosin was pretty well done considering the size of the Chinese forces.
3. MacArthur, from Inchon to the repulse of the Chinese back past the 38th did a pretty masterful job with the forces he was given. There is no doubt the US was completely unprepared for the Korean War; troops were green and supplies were hard to come by at first.
Slam him all you like, but there's a lot of folks, military historians included, that think Mac did a masterful tactical job in Korea.
And as to the idea that the US/UN forces got whipped.... well, battles were lost for sure. But the war was won and if one compares casualties it's clear the US/UN did WAY better than the NK/CCF.
