P-47 N Never Saw Action in WWII

[Wotan]

Really?

See Here

I am in complete agreement with your lineup. For Early P-47s a P-47C-5 and P-47D-5 would fill out the set. I'd also like to see the D-11 updated to the high-activity prop as almost all were upgraded to this within a month of reaching Britain.

Chronology of the P-47s in terms of deliveries:
C-5 Late 1942-early 1943
D-5 Spring 1943- summer 1943
D-11 Fall 1943- early winter 1943

By December of 1943 most ETO P-47 Groups flew a mixture of D-5s and D-11s. Most, if not all P-47C-5s had been sent down to training units or were classified as War Weary (WW) by then.

As to that fellow who mentioned the serial numbers beginning with 42; serial numbers reflect those assigned when the contract was signed, and do not reflect actual delivery or in-service dates. There were P-51Bs and Cs with 42 serial numbers, but the first P-51B did not arrive in Britain until September of 1943.

For the IJAAF, the Ki-43-II, Ki-44-II and the Ki-61-1-Otsu would be very helpful.

In addition to the A6M3, I'd like to see the J2M3 added.

I also agree that the Soviet lineup needs a lot of attention.

My regards,

Widewing

C-5 was upgraded to include additional cowl flaps, water injection and the "bulged keel" plumbed for a single belly tank, bringing them up the revision level of D-10s and D-11s just arriving in theater.

Of course it wouldn't make sense if they 'were upgraded'. But that would preclude them from being utilized in the earliest time frame.

Just like you said in the previous post above...

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Wotan
Really?

Of course it wouldn't make sense if they 'were upgraded'. But that would preclude them from being utilized in the earliest time frame.

Just like you said in the previous post above...

Today I looked at the field upgrade dates for the 8th AF. By April of 1943 C models were being upgraded at refit depots with retro kits as I descibed earlier today. Indeed, the majority of early D models were not issued to squadrons until they received the upgrades.

For example, the 56th didn't start flying combat ops until April of '43, and those were nothing more than familiarization sweeps ignored by the Luftwaffe. Real escort missions were limited by the early fighter's short range. They didn't venture beyond Antwerp until after there was a sufficient supply of upgraded aircraft. As it was, some of the P-47s going to Antwerp ran out of fuel.

To simulate early C models, just disable the belly tank option in the hanger!

By August 5th of 1943, only 7 of the 56th's P-47Cs had not been upgraded and were sent down as War Wearies, being replaced by D models. By September, all were upgraded. Similar dates apply to the 78th and 4th FGs. After May of 1943, P-47Cs not yet upgraded seldom flew escort missions. More than a few pilots were unhappy to remain behind because their Jug hadn't yet been sent one of the refit depots.

My earlier post was based upon delivery dates. Actual ETO combat introduction was later and most P-47C aircraft were soon upgraded to equal the the P-47D-10 and D-11, as were earlier D models.

So, with this knowledge in hand I had to re-evaluate my position and conclude that we don't need a C model or an earlier D model either. A later razorback model would have been useful.

My regards,

Widewing

[agent 009]

The "P-47M" was a more conservative attempt to come up with a "hot rod" version of the Thunderbolt. Three P-47Ds were modified into prototype YP-47Ms by fitting the P&W R-2800-57(C) engine and the GE CH-5 turbosupercharger.

The performance of the YP-47M was excellent, with a top speed of 761 KPH (473 MPH), and the variant was rushed into production to counter the threat of the new German V-1 cruise missiles and German jet fighters. 130 P-47Ms were built, with the first arriving in Europe in early 1945. However, the type suffered persistent teething problems in the field and did not see much action until the war was all but over.
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 The M would be on paper the fastest single engined prop job to see action in ww2. TA 152 officially 472, P-47 M 473 mph. However it's reported that 152 could do better than that. Do 335 faster perhaps, but 2 motors.

Too bad P-51 H never saw action. Or Longnose V-18 for that matter. Or the MB 5 too.

[Waffle]

P47 N - not pointless to TOD in the fact that there will be a pacific theatre in TOD as well after the initial ETO. Least I'm pretty sue there will be one...lol

[Wotan]

Today I looked at the field upgrade dates for the 8th AF. By April of 1943 C models were being upgraded at refit depots with retro kits as I descibed earlier today. Indeed, the majority of early D models were not issued to squadrons until they received the upgrades.

The 4th FG claimed their first LW kill on 15 April '43. (Don Blakeslee, a Focke Wulf of JG 1 - * see below the first P-47 victory in ETO)

The 4th's first combat mission was on 10, **March[/i] '43. IIRC this mission was a real mess and combat missions were postponed until 8 April '43

Their first 'escort mission'  was on 17 Aug '43 (first leg  on the Schweinfurt raid).

As I said in the other thread the issue isn't performance, its range...

No I want the limited range.

P-47C-5 or D-4 (D-4 had water so its not just a water issue). The D-11 is '44 aircraft. By adding an A-3 (an A-4 would be almost the same as the A-3, we could do with an A-2 but then we end up with more mismatched variants; ie Spit V with 16lbs boost etc...) and a earlier ('43) Jug the time frame for a Western European Theater gets extended. As such you get more balanced theater overall. Initially difficult for the Allies ending up extremely difficult for the LW.

If you just run 30 days of P51s late 38s and late Jugs then it may not be sustainable. AH has the P-38s as well now.

A 'happy time' for both sides basically.

To simulate early C models, just disable the belly tank option in the hanger!

No such option in AH exists.

My earlier post was based upon delivery dates. Actual ETO combat introduction was later and most P-47C aircraft were soon upgraded to equal the the P-47D-10 and D-11, as were earlier D models.

So, with this knowledge in hand I had to re-evaluate my position and conclude that we don't need a C model or an earlier D model either. A later razorback model would have been useful.

With the addition of a D-5 and the Hamilton PB prop added to the D-11 the P-47 holes would have been filled.

If you want to argue that a D-23 or whatever (one could argue for a D-15 as well) it doesn't really change anything in relation the the P-47N's introduction into AH.

*Here

According to the 4th Fighter Group history Escort to Berlin, there were two separate encounters with German fighters, about 50 minutes apart, involving two different squadrons. Officially the show was called Rodeo 204 -- a fighter sweep to Furnes, Belgium, to Cassel, France.

Times given are conflicting, probably because the group was split up. Both 56th and 78th Group aircraft participated to gain experience. At 1701 hours, Blakeslee was leading the 335th FS when he spotted three FW-190s over Knocke, at 23,000 ft., and bounced one from 6,000 ft. above. The summary says the German pilot dived away and the tail chase levelled off at 500 ft. before the Focke-Wulf crashed into the sea near Ostend.

Meanwhile the 334th FS was crossing the North Sea, and they engaged FW-190s at about 1750 hours. Two pilots were shot down and killed: Capt. Stanley Anderson (P-47C 41-6407)[and Capt. Richard McMinn (P-47C 41-6204). Both crashed into the water several miles off the coast of Belgium, between Ostend and Blankenberghe.

Lt. Col. Chesley Peterson was the overall mission commander Peterson's plane (P-47C 41-6414) was the first loss of the day, and not involved in combats. He aborted early because of engine trouble shortly after take-off, and bailed out into the sea 30 miles off the English coast. Rescued by a Walrus 45 minutes later

Interestingly no JG 1 190s were lost that day. 15 FW 190A-4s II./JG 1 were engaged in combat with P-47s. 14 returned unharmed and 3 kill claims, 1 190 was forced to land due to engine troubles. One pilot (5./JG 1 Ofw. Ernst Heesen) claimed 2 p-47s. (other sources state 2 P-47s were lost due to engine troubles).

3 P47 losses

1 claimed unknown 190 by Blakeslee...

Those C's saw more combat in WETO then the N did ...

Waffle BAS,

Even once the plane set is full enough for a late war PAC its better speed and range over the other P-47s won't really mean that much. All late war US planes are much faster the JPN planes. I doubt the missions in ToD will require a plane with the range of the P-47N as well (no one lies to be bored).

** Edited to correct date mistake...

[agent 009]

Kurt Buhligen said whenever a 47 would get on my tail, I would go straight up, do a loop, & end up on the 47's tail every time. I shot down several this way.

Further he said. The problem with the 47 was that it weighed too much, & there were certain maneuvers it just couldn't do.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Wotan
The 4th's first combat mission was on 10, April '43. IIRC this mission was a real mess and combat missions were postponed until 8 April '43

there is something wrong in this sentence or I've translation trouble ?

[Wotan]

Yup should be March 10.. typo

[straffo]

I was not sure as the english speakers allways put the words in a pretty unnatural order in their sentences

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Wotan

No such option in AH exists.

Not for AH2, but ToD is another story. There's no reason why HTC cannot configure the scenarios by limiting access to optional hardware. We've seen unintentional bugs that did exactly that.
 
If the planes spawn in flight, it is probable that ToD will configure the fuel state at the time of spawn. Moreover, since these are pre-planned missions, I doubt that the user will have any control over aircraft configuration as that will likely be a function of the mission profile. You sign up and fly the duty aircraft exactly as it's configured. It makes no sense to structure a mission that can be unstructured by the individual pilots changing fuel states and load-out. Really, I doubt that ToD will have anything like the hanger we now have on the clipboard.

My regards,

Widewing