P-51D vs Fw-190D

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Crumpp
I don't know about this, Urchin.  The FW190 pilots I have spoken with were very clear in their memories.

 


They got in close and fought in classic dogfights.  In general all fighter pilots avoided a protracted dogfights as it left you vunerable.  Both Oscar and Heinz engaged in intense close quater "AH" dogfighting and were successful.  Both have expressed the same sentiment about the FW190's dogfighting ability.  To quote Oscar Boesch, "I feared no fighter I could see in my Focke!".



All the best,

Crumpp

Quick some call the Weather Channel to see if Hell froze over because I'm actually agreeing with Crumpp.

I'm reading Luftwaffe Fighter Aces: The Jagdflieger and Their Combat Tactics and Techniques and it mentions that the RAF were surprised when they first started to encounter the FW190.  The FW190s they encountered were more than willing to engage in classic dogfights than their bf109 counter parts.


ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Kweassa
I'm not debating the fact that it did happen Guppy. The point is how commonly did it happen in real life.

A lot more common than you think.  For some reason no matter how many examples we provide you seem to either dismiss them off hand or completely ignore them.  

Read ALLIED FIGHTER ACES: The Air Combat Tactics and Techniques of World War II.  Some pretty good stuff and quite a few mention using flaps in combat.  



ack-ack

[Mustaine]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Quick some call the Weather Channel to see if Hell froze over because I'm actually agreeing with Crumpp.

I'm reading Luftwaffe Fighter Aces: The Jagdflieger and Their Combat Tactics and Techniques and it mentions that the RAF were surprised when they first started to encounter the FW190.  The FW190s they encountered were more than willing to engage in classic dogfights than their bf109 counter parts.


ack-ack

ack-ack

yeah.. all the material i read when the 190 came out, and the first spit V's encountered it, they were for lack of a better word PWNED.

they freaked out, and learned to dive out and away from all 190's they encountered (this is during the early days after the BoB)

later what i have read, mostly slanted towards allied since they won, and most is from their perspective, the 190D really caused fits when it was around (though seldom albeit)

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Read ALLIED FIGHTER ACES: The Air Combat Tactics and Techniques of World War II.  Some pretty good stuff and quite a few mention using flaps in combat.  
ack-ack

Does it not say 'not to get into turning fights'. It could be in the sorce you mention or it could have been someplace else, but American fighters were told not to do more than a 1/2 turn (can't remember the exact degree of turn). They were then to break off the pursuit.

[Kweassa]

A lot more common than you think. For some reason no matter how many examples we provide you seem to either dismiss them off hand or completely ignore them.

Read ALLIED FIGHTER ACES: The Air Combat Tactics and Techniques of World War II. Some pretty good stuff and quite a few mention using flaps in combat.

 Again, you fail to grasp the concept of "majority" vs the "ace" (notice that the book you recommend, has also got the word "Ace" embedded in the title), not to mention greatly underestimate the difficulty of operating multiple gadgetry inside the cockpit during actual combat.

 An experienced pilot could, and probably would, use flaps everytime he engages an enemy, and that still would not make it "common".

 Look at the bigger picture Akster.

 Not every pilot flying in the air is a wing leader or an  ace. Typically 1/3rd or 1/4th of people who fly would actually score a kill, and the rest 2/3rd or 3/4th are wingmen would be in support of the best pilot and leader.

 Also, typical combat involving flaps, or any other kind of "fancy moves" for that matter, usually happens when the attacking side is on the 'gangbang'.

 Most of the enemy planes are already have been taken care of. Then the attackers would corner the few surviving enemies and have a go at them like a street gang bullies a kid around.... And only then, you see the experts leisurely chasing after a superior maneuvering enemy plane with all kind of fancy maneuvering... all the while the rest of the wingmen are on the watchout nearby,  in case he ever makes a mistake.

 I've never seen a source where pilots would risk tight turns, or use flaps, or get involved in 'fancy stuff', when the odds were bad, or at least equal.

 Not surprising - as anyone who tries such foolishness amidst multiple enemies would probably be the one to die first.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Kweassa

Look at the bigger picture Akster.

And real life combats were not like sim fights either. Most combats were just a single bounce, with usually 1, maybe 2 kill claims, often none. And in high speed. An aerial combat lasted usually only a few seconds, after that you're alone or disengaged, your attacker or target is gone, disappeared.

And yes, only tiny number of pilots ever scored kills, wasn't the rough ratio like 1/10th of the pilots score 9/10ths of all victories?

Do not confuse sim dogfights with real life aerial combats.

[agent 009]

"(So did Eric Brown. He regarded the P-51, the 190D-9 and the Spit XIV as the three best single-engined fighters of the war, with little to choose between them - they had different strengths and weaknesses.)"

He actually said Dora & MK 14 spit top 2 with little to choose between em & Mustang a tad below these 2.

Buhligen stated:we could outturn the Mustang with both, ( 109 & 190).

I did once read a British pilots account of flying a radial 190, he said; after about 3 turns, I found I had little difficulty getting on the tails of the mustangs.

Werner Schroer said Dora better than Stang. being centrally armed was a neat advantage. More stable gun platform. Yeager said this.

Don't play computer games, so have no comment there. Rather stick to the piots views.

As for flaps, yah both could drop flaps. Dora had presets, a bit more sophisticated no? On turn circle, Stang 960 ft, & Dora with flaps down 800 plus ft.

Turn is overrated, superior roll negates turn, roll in opposite direction & a better turning opponent that cannot roll well, I.E. Spit is no longer on your tail.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by 1K3
I havent seen any subjects covering '51D v 190D but imo these BnZ-ers/knife-fighters are equal in a duel or in furrball enviroment  

 
With regard to the original question, the answer is that the P-51D is a somewhat better fighter in AH2 than the 190D-9. I suggest that if you disagree, re-read Urchin's response.

And please, don't waste our time arguing about BnZ tactics. Any pilot with even a hint of skill can avoid the typical Dora jockey all day long.

Last night I made a rare appearance in the MA and took up a P-47N to help eradicate a Knit infestation (field A145 on Trinity). It turned out that I took too much gas (50% and a belly tank) When I arrived, there were two or three Rooks and about 15 Knits milling about. One fighter hanger remained up, but not for long. Coming off the bomb run, I clobbered an IL-2 that was shooting at a fellow Rook. Having too much fuel weight for comfort and being literally surrounded by a horde of Knits, maneuvering for kills was out of the question. I smacked several knit fighters as I blew through their gaggle a couple of times. Maintaining my speed above 300 mph and using the big N's acceleration and speed, I quickly left several pursuing fighters (109G-10s and F4Us) behind and got clear of the mob.

Up ahead were several growing dots, which from the DAR, I determined to be enemy. I headed straight for them. I didn't climb, staying at 2k.

The first enemy spotted was a P-47, an N as it turned out. This guy attempted to avoid a fight by angling off towards the northeast. I cut him off and killed him.

As I finish the Jug, I looked around and directly above me (2k on his icon) was a Knit 190 (later identified as a Dora). I turned perpendicular to his heading. As expected, down he comes. I turn into his attack and he blows by, doing the typical zoom climb to a reverse. This happens several times and each time he has no shot. On his last attempt, I had gained enough angles to meet him head-on. Not liking that option, he stayed off line and we passed on each other's left side. This time he decided to change his tactics and looped the Dora. I instantly made a climbing reverse, dumped some flaps and cut across his loop. I was now behind the Dora, about 45 degrees from a shot and getting closer by the second. Cognizant of what was about to happen, the Dora dives for the deck and runs. I leveled off 600 yards back pulling up my flaps to increase acceleration. I squeezed off a short burst and observed hit sprites. The Dora then began the famous Focke Wulf jitterbug. I was about 1k behind and the 190 showed no interest in doing anything but running. Unfortunately for him, he was running towards some fellow Rooks. I suspect he had a pilot wound as he made no effort to evade and was finished off in a single pass.

Now, the Dora is one of two main rides of that pilot. His other favorite seems to be the Niki. Typical of many Dora jocks, IMHO, he had no idea how to use the Dora's strengths. If the best they can manage are BnZ tactics, sooner of later they will get impatient and burn off enough E to allow a decent pilot to gain angles and suddenly, "the top rail is on bottom".

Performance of the P-47N is not greatly dissimilar to that of the P-51D. The Jug accelerates faster, rolls faster and zoom climbs better. In a steady climb, the Mustang has a slight edge when both use WEP, but that edge depends on weight. A light P-47N is a monster. Unfortunately, 95% of the guys who will fly it have no idea what it's capable of (you guys should come to the TA and find out). Obviously, some Dora drivers have not yet tangled with a well flown P-47N, or they would go look for an easier target.

So yeah, I believe that in AH2 the P-51D is slightly better fighter than the Dora. However, the P-47N is better than both of them. Especially from 10k on up. I can think of only one advantage held by the Dora, max speed on the deck. Climb rate differences are not enough to save you if the other guy is relatively Co-E.

A lot of guys harp on the 190's roll rate advantage. This is easily neutralized if you know how. There's nothing more inviting to me than a 190 trying to get out of trouble with a scissors. This is another maneuver easily countered.

In my opinion, the three best all around fighters in the game are the F4U-4, SpitXIV and the P-38J, in that order. The low altitude monsters such as the Tempest and La-7 are limited in that the higher they go, the poorer they perform. When you get to 20k and higher, the P-47N and Ta-152 literally own the place.

My regards,

Widewing

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Kweassa


 Look at the bigger picture Akster.

 

Akster?  *rolls eyes*

+Tiff/CorkyJr posted a AAR from a flight of P-38Gs, none of the pilots in that flight were aces or even had significant fligh time in the P-38.  If you had read that post, you would have read the part where they had used flaps to engage the German planes that bounced them.

It was common for P-38L pilots to use their dive flaps to aid in high speed turning.  Common with P-51 and P-47 drivers as well.  Just because you can't fathom doing it with all the clutter doesn't mean others weren't able to do it as well.  Remember, your view comes from your belief and not based on fact.  There has been enough posts to show you otherwise but you refuse to take off the blinders you have on.  And that is all I have to say on this subject.  


ack-ack

[J_A_B]

"Common with P-51 and P-47 drivers as well. "

I recall that in Col. Anderson's book, he describes using his flaps to turn tighter in a 1 vs 1 dogfight against an ME-109.

The lesser-known pilots might not have written books, but that doesn't mean they didn't use their flaps.  But then, some people actually think that WW2 air combat was little more than a series of high-speed bounces.

J_A_B

[Kweassa]

It was common for P-38L pilots to use their dive flaps to aid in high speed turning. Common with P-51 and P-47 drivers as well. Just because you can't fathom doing it with all the clutter doesn't mean others weren't able to do it as well. Remember, your view comes from your belief and not based on fact. There has been enough posts to show you otherwise but you refuse to take off the blinders you have on. And that is all I have to say on this subject.

 The point is, pilots using flaps is like chimps learning to catch termites with sticks - it's not a common thing to the entire species of chimps.

 It depends on;

1)what kind of group the individual pilot is in

2) what kind of characteristic pilots influence the group, and how they teach new pilots

3) what the usual situation one could expect during flying, and the type of enemy plane

4) what the basic preferences and tendencies of air combat was, depending on nationality

 ..
 
 It may have been dominant in one area of operations, but that never makes it "common". Neither the USAAF nor the P-38 alone, is a sole standard when determining these things.

 To quote Guppy;

Was it reccomended as a long term life insurance policy? Nope. Getting slow in a combat zone, doesn't project a long life.

I think it's safe to say the the AH 38 world is best represented by those 370th FG 38 drivers. The fights are lower, often on the deck and often where the 38 is lugging bombs to some airfield etc.

I don't think it was a reccomended tactic in the Pacific. General George Kenny, head of 5th AF wasn't happy with his new 38 pilots tactics early on, including Bong and Lynch as they were too often trying to dogfight Zeros. The tactics in the Pac were to keep the speed up and B & Z the Zekes etc to death.

I think it's safe to say the 38 drivers were versed in how to use those flaps though, and if you look at those 370th accounts, their use was in a defensive, save their skins posture, not an attack mode. In all those cases they did not have alt and E on their side.

 Widewing;

Crump's argument that prolonged use of flaps will actually harm turning is correct. Nonetheless, the enemy you are engaged with is likely experiencing the same problem, exacerbated by the fact that only a handful of WWII fighters had a power loading in the P-38's class (especially the P-38L when rigged for 1,725 hp per engine). Still, I concur that flap use should be limited and maintaining E is a factor of greater importance 95% of the time.

 Kurfürst;

it`s no wonder it was rarely mentioned. German tactics revolved around diving attacks and giving no chance for the enemy. Only a few of their pilots preferred manouvering combat over strict energy tactics. Especially as they were usually outnumbered, and turning would slow them down and loosing the initiative.

 ..J_A_B, from this very thread;

I recall that in Col. Anderson's book, he describes using his flaps to turn tighter in a 1 vs 1 dogfight against an ME-109.

 ..and, Murdr;

Tilly never would have tried to stay with that (correction) Oscar had it not been 12 vs 2.

 
 Arguing flap usage as a common thing to happen, without duly noting the overall situation into context, is plain wrong.

  ...
 
 And on the still bigger picture yet, flaps is only a part of what we should be discussing on this thread. The talk about flaps is really only a side-dish.

 A fighter pilot's duty is to take things as simple as possible inside his cockpit. Some like complex and heart-pumping fights on purpose, but such was never recommended nor really safe - complexity kills, people.

[J_A_B]

"Arguing flap usage as a common thing to happen, without duly noting the overall situation into context, is plain wrong. "

It can be trusted to common sense that we can all assume pilots weren't dropping 40 degrees flaps the instant they sighted some bogies.  As you say, there's no need to over-analyze things.  


"The point is, pilots using flaps is like chimps learning to catch termites with sticks - it's not a common thing to the entire species of chimps. "

You could say the exact same thing about pilots using parachutes.  Most pilots never had to use it.  Should we assume, then, that most pilots didn't know how to use their 'chutes if they needed to?  I'd wager that fighter pilots used their flaps (in planes with combat flaps, anyway) more often than they used their parachutes.


"And on the still bigger picture yet, flaps is only a part of what we should be discussing on this thread. The talk about flaps is really only a side-dish. "

Agreed.  But--that's what makes these forums fun!

J_A_B

[Kweassa]

It can be trusted to common sense that we can all assume pilots weren't dropping 40 degrees flaps the instant they sighted some bogies. As you say, there's no need to over-analyze things.

 Point taken, J_A_B.

 The need to emphasize the situational background sprang up from trying to explain my point, concerning the issue of comparing the 190D and the P-51.

 Some people could push their plane to limits, others couldn't. Some used flaps quite frequently, others didn't. But regardless of that fact, most would stick to a safer range of maneuvering, on a team level effort. Stick to the promised moves, use others to clear six, and try not to commit everything in a single fight - since they can't simply reup after they die, like we do.

You could say the exact same thing about pilots using parachutes. Most pilots never had to use it. Should we assume, then, that most pilots didn't know how to use their 'chutes if they needed to? I'd wager that fighter pilots used their flaps (in planes with combat flaps, anyway) more often than they used their parachutes.

 I never said pilots didn't know how to use flaps, J_A_B. I said pilots wouldn't want to get into that situation in the first place, and those who did go into that situation, had a lot of factors working for them.

 

Agreed. But--that's what makes these forums fun!

 Glad you approve!

 I wasn't trying to drag in the old flap debate. Obviously the differences in opinions in that issue would never be resolved.

 I was merely trying to make a point that complex issues involved in flying a plane, might be able to explain the reason why some pilots considered the Fw190s as an able "dogfighter", quite contrary to us gamer's impression on that plane.

[Guppy35]

I remember reading as a kid and seeing photos to support it, about the differences in how 4th FG Aces Duane Beeson and Don Gentile flew their 51s.

Beeson rammed the throttle forward and had two hands on the stick, electing to blow on past targets, while Gentile had one hand on the throttle and one on the stick, giving him more control to stay in the 'dogfight'.

Wish I could find the photos now....funny how you can remember stuff when you want to.  Found em

Gentile on the left, Beeson on the right

Dan/CorkyJr

[MANDO]

As many of us remember, Pyro expressed his intention to redo all the 190 family (may be a year ago). So, we may consider AH 190s as unfinished planes at this moment.