Spoke to Pyro re Spits

[Kev367th]

Over or close 2000 I believe. Could be wrong

Oops found it, lucky we didn't ask for 28lbs

[Wilbus]

All the LW fans want their late war rides perk free, but even a hint of late war good performing Spit and its PERK IT.

Ever gonna stop saying *all*? Really, bring it on, let's see what it can do. It doesn't matter how much we discuss it here, we don't have the plane yet. The plane would be perked on extensive use due to one or many performance specs. 5.7k min/climb rate with the turn rate of a Spit 9 is almost impossible fight without an alt advantage or in a better turning plane.

But like I said, bring it on, would be fun to see how it performs.

The reason some may want it perked is that the spitfire is already a widely used plane in AH MA, not because it was historicly famous but because it is one of the very easiest planes to fly and score kills in. Granted some very good pilots fly it and there is nothing dweeby about it but it is considered a "n00b" plane. And consider this, n00bs often get their first kills in it and fairly quick aswell even though it is a 1942 fighter in a 1944 environment.

[Kev367th]

OK my apologies for the *all*.
It just gets infuriating. Spitfans don't mind losing the uber Spit V, but we expect something in return apart from what would be a 1943 Spit LF IX if the XVI was held at 18lbs.
Whilst meanwhile the LW fans get their 1944 speed monsters again.
Funnily enough this is the whole crux of the argument, LW have 1944 perk free rides, wheres our free 1944 Spit ride?
How would you feel if the LW free planeset stopped being free after 1943?

It will NOT have the turn radius of Spit IX, where do all these misconceptions come from?
Having clipped wings its turn radius will obviously be worse, but it will roll better.
Result - Incorrect assumption (1/2).

Fine, if you want to perk it for overuse, how many others fall into that category? Top 2 used planes La7, N1K. Prob P47N up there by end this tour?
Result - Argument dismissed.

Impossible to fight without an alt advantage or in a better turning plane?
Well I guess you pick any plane eg a P51D and say that a Spit V requires an alt advantage, and we know it turns better.
Or a Spit IX and say that a Hurri 2 requires and alt advantage, we know it turns better.
Sorry that argument doesn't hold up under ANY rational scrutiny, can pick various pairs of planes and say the same thing.
Result - Argument dismissed.

n00b plane - Nothing to do with current discussion, attempt to throw in red herrings.

Overall - 1/2 out of 4 (gave the 1/2 for at least getting the fact that it is a Spit IX really, but failing to realise it was going to be a clipped wing version).

NEXT

Expected more rationalle from you Wilbus.

[edit] It 'may' have the best climbrate in the game (low level), we don't know as we don't know whats planned for the 109s.

[Squire]

I have a Q. for the 109 lads:

What if the 109G-14 with MW50 was added? is that a rough equivilant to a Spit XVI with 25 lbs boost? yes, no?

Cuz that varient might be coming...

And, more importantly would it be perked? , sry I slipped, just ignore that last part.

[Wilbus]

Originally posted by Kev367th
OK my apologies for the *all*.

It will NOT have the turn radius of Spit IX, where do all these misconceptions come from?
Having clipped wings its turn radius will obviously be worse, but it will roll better.
Result - Incorrect assumption (1/2).

Fine, if you want to perk it for overuse, how many others fall into that category? Top 2 used planes La7, N1K. Prob P47N up there by end this tour?
Result - Argument dismissed.

Impossible to fight without an alt advantage or in a better turning plane?
Well I guess you pick any plane eg a P51D and say that a Spit V requires an alt advantage, and we know it turns better.
Or a Spit IX and say that a Hurri 2 requires and alt advantage, we know it turns better.
Sorry that argument doesn't hold up under ANY rational scrutiny, can pick various pairs of planes and say the same thing.
Result - Argument dismissed.

n00b plane - Nothing to do with current discussion, attempt to throw in red herrings.

Overall - 1/2 out of 4 (gave the 1/2 for at least getting the fact that it is a Spit IX really, but failing to realise it was going to be a clipped wing version).

NEXT

Expected more rationalle from you Wilbus.

LOL Did I hit a tender spot there?

Perk it for overuse yes. There will always be top 2 used planes Kev but the spit XVI would probarly be overused (like the C hog if you were here back in those days) thus perk. (I don't care really, I gave you the reasons most people would want it perked). Neither LA7 or the Niki are overused. So your correction of my so called misstake just failed. So you can dismiss your own argument instead of being an a** about it.

Yeah I forgot about the clipped wings, turn will be a bit worse but not by much, it will still turn on a dime, roll great and climb like a rocket no matter what boost used.

Any special reason you try to be an a** about it or did it just come out that way?

Attempt to throd in red herrings? Like I said, trying to be an a** or just happens that way?  I don't in anyway try to throw in "red herrings". The spit is and will always be a n00b plane in AH thanks to its great performance and it does have to do with the discussion.

[Kev367th]

Wilbus I'm not getting into a slanging match.
Sorry if it came off like that, just tired of the same old reasons for not having one, but if we do get one it has to be perked.

Ok - Yes it does have a great climb rate down low, all the top rides have at least one outstanding feature -
La7 - Speed low down and fairly agile
P47N - Speed at alt and carries a lot ord.
P51 - Has to be one of the best all round planes in the whole planeset.
D9 - Speed low down and roll rate
G10 - Great climb at alt and fast down low
etc etc

Its not going to be the fastest, nor the best endurance (24% higher fuel burn 25lbs), nor carry the most ord, even a Spit IX will outurn it.

No I wasn't here for the Chog, but I've heard about it.
If thats the case I fully expect a lowly Seafire III to be perked when it is introduced, it will most likely see the most use off a CV of any plane. Speed of our current Mk V but with ord carrying capabilities.
See how perking planes on usage starts to get into the realms of ridiculousness? It would be a 1943 plane probably not in the top 10 speed wise getting perked for usage.

Sorry - you have your free 1944 LW rides (2 or 3 in current planeset), is it too much to ask for ONE free 1944 Spit? Not asking for another Griffon engined beast (which I would agree should be perked), just a Merlin.

[Wilbus]

Kev I know you're better then giving me that kind of treatment. I guess you're just a bit too tied up in this discussion.

I'm trying to look at this from more then one point of view, gave you a few reasons why it might be perked (overuse being the most obvious). Simple fact is, this kind of discussion happaned before The Ki84 was added, it happaned before the P47 N was added, it happens now. Same old stupid discussion. We won't know anything untill it is released.

Look at the ENY values of the spits in AH, they aren't that low because of the planes superior MA performance, it's that low to try and limit it and get people to fly planes in which they will earn more perks. The XVI would own the current spits in AH except for the XIV while being as easy to fly as the spit IX in AH (XIV generally alot tougher to handle).

Like I said above, I don't give a damn if it is perked really, I am waiting for ToD, there it won't be perked I am quite sure. The MA is nothing but a Training Arena to me, an arena to enter and try and have some fun while working on gunnery, ACM, SA and all other things (even though I tend to get pissed off sometimes).

Waiting for ToD then the MA guys can fly around in Jets 24/7 for all I care.

[Kev367th]

Wilbus, yeah I'm probably a little to close to the discussion.

But us poor Spitfans have fought long and hard for fair, balanced and most importantly representative Spit lineup.
We have been saddled with a mongrel 1942 Spit 9 as the latest free Spit available for a long long time.

Bring the 16 in at an ENY of 5, that will reduce its usage, most importantly when the numbers really start to skew, but only at an ENY of 5 if it is at 25lbs.

Was so excited when I heard the 16 was coming, until I realized that at 18lbs boost all it is is a 1943 Spit IX .
If thats the case would much prefer Pyro just sorts out the Spit 9 and remodels the current ones as is.
Don't mind losing the uber Spit 5 for a representative 1944 Spit 16, but for a 1943 Spit 9, and still having no free 1944 Spit - no thanks.

Just like to see fairness when at all possible - LW have 2 or 3 free 1944 fighters, all we're asking for is ONE free 1944 spit, that too much?

See ya in the sky, hopefully soon in Spit 16 @ 25lbs lol. Just realised the graph I posted shows they were tested to 28lbs (2200HP), now that would have been worth a perk or two .

[Wilbus]

But us poor Spitfans have fought long and hard for fair, balanced and most importantly representative Spit lineup.   We have been saddled with a mongrel 1942 Spit 9 as the latest free Spit available for a long long time.

Agree with you there


Well the reason LW has got 3 non perked 1944 birds (Dora, A8 and G10) is that non of them are really easy enough to fly to get the massive overuse and thus get perked.

While the G10 easily beats a spit 9 if flown the right way, very few people know how to fly it the right way and very few people have the time/patience to learn. The A8 is a 1944 bird but way too heavy for most people and together with its 190 sister Dora the worst turner in the game. The Dora, is very competative, but like the A8 it turns bad, it's fast as hell but very few people can use the speed in other ways then just run away. And running away don't get you kills.

What we have to think of is that many people, specially new people (the new people being a big part to why the spit 5 and 9 are used as much as they are) fly the spits because they are "easy" (ment in a good way). Good guns although a bit low on ammo, combined with exelent turn rate and good climb make it the plane of choice for many dogfighters. It's a 1942 plane yes and slow but that speed is not needed for people who just care to enter the arena for an hour or so and get a couple of kills, don't care wether they die or live and the speed is not needed to get kills in a furball.

It would be great to have the XVI non perked but I personally think it would be "overused" in a way that MAY unbalance the arena.

So conclusion, LW non perked vs RAF... the Spitfire is by far the best choice for 95% of the players which is why it is SO popular. They aren't overused the way they are now but a XVI might (or might not) change that. We can only way and see I guess.

(Still waiting for ToD )

[Kev367th]

Funny you should say that -

In Bishland the most question often asked by newbs is "Whats the fastest plane".
Only one answer and off he goes in his Lala, may account for the Lala being the most used of any plane.
But proves one thing, in the MA speed is everything.
At typical MA furball alts the 16s speed is approx 380mph, hardly stunning compared to others.
Its max speed is at 20k and its still less than 400mph, hardly a bit threat to Ponys etc.
OTD its only 354mph still way behind what could be considered the big 4 or 5.
It won't turn as well as a 9 because of its clipped wings, all it will really have is a great climb rate. Good for intercepting IB bogies, unless they decide to run.
How many 262, Temps etc are killed by slower planes diving in from higher alt, Spit 16 would be no different.

Thats why I dont think a 25lbs Spit 16 would be that much of problem, there's just too many planes can catch it at all alts. You can also bet it not only being chased by say the invetible Lala, you can almost guarentee there will be slower better turning planes there also.
Whats worse the single Lala chasing you, knowing you can prob get to the Lala to run away. Or the Lala with say a couple of Spit V's tagging along behind just waiting for him to turn you?

The MA is so chaotic in a furball I doubt a Spit 16 at full boost is going to be anymore of a problem that your average late war ride.

Actaully a good example is the Spit 14, bet you've seen a lot more now the perk cost is down, I know I have. I have also seen a lot shot down, yet this is the uber Griffon engined monster.

The only problem I see is misunderstanding. People will assume as it's a 16 it must be better that a 14 not realising it really just a 1944 Mk 9. Yes probably see a lot of use initially, but most will go back to their usual Lala, Pony rides etc. It would prob become the Spit ride of choice for low alt furballs, but the 9 would be used for higher alt stuff, and for range the 8 would be used. Whatever happens once the 5 is de-rated it will rapidly becamoe a hanger queen.

My own personal choice at the moment is the Tiffy, only because it stands a chance of catching the late war stuff. My ride of choice would be the 16 @ 25lbs, slower that the Tiff, 2 less 20mms, but its a Spit. Wont even bother trying a Spit 16 at 18lbs.

Just my thoughts.

[Charge]

Heh, thinking about 190A8 -44 vs. Spit IX -42 matc-up. Which wins hands down? Any guesses? We certainly need faster free Spits. MA will be more fun and -44 scenarios will be hilarious...

-C+

[Wilbus]

Actaully a good example is the Spit 14, bet you've seen a lot more now the perk cost is down, I know I have. I have also seen a lot shot down, yet this is the uber Griffon engined monster.

The Spit 14 actually is Uber in AH but it has to be flown right. The way to fly it is more the way you fly a G10 then it is you fly a Spitfire IX in AH.

That is also the reason I fear the XVI (slower speed or not) might see overuse. It is the same plane as the Spit 9 but with clipped wings. It will have more or less the same stability as the IX compared to the much more instabile XIV. I think that in the current MA, even if unperked totally, the XIV would see less use then the IX. Not because the IX is better, but because it is far easier to use and gets you up in the saddle quicker.

As for LA7's I agree with you, it's not the plane it self that is a threat but the cherry pickin horde behind it.

The LA7 is a big problem even in the fast Dora. Problem with Dora is that it lacks the turning capebilities to fight the LA.

As for the most common question in Knit land, it is "What is the best plane" or "what is the best plane for n00bs". My answer is always the same. Spitfire MK IX or N1K2.

I hope it is added as a free plane, and even with 18lbs boost I think you should bother with it, it would be a beast in the MA even with that "low" boost much thanks to 4.7k/min climb rate.

Persoanlly I look forward to seeing it, and the other spits, I will definatly give them a try although I don't find spits in AH any fun at the moment.

[Kev367th]

Agreed Wilbus, the problem is tha MA is not a place where planes are usually flown right.
It's just total organized choas.
If you flew the P47N at its best alt of 31k you be lonely, so you have to come down lower to alts where other planes start getting the edge.

Disagree that if the 14 were unperked you still less use than the 9, I think you'd see almost exclusively 14s just for its speed.

Spit 16 would be a novelty when 1st introduced (as are all, look at current rash P47N's) but once people realise its not the be all and end all of Spits depending on what you want to do, its usage would decline to acceptable levels as people go back to their usual rides.
Whatever Pyro does once the Spit 5 is de-ubered (back to 12lbs boost) and given the proper cannon loadout for a Vb (lot less than current), you'll see more people in whatever Spit is introduced and the V usage decline. thats something that he should be ready for.

Look at it this way -
Take a Tiffy:
Chop off top end speed at all alts.
Make it dive less stable at high speeds and compress earlier.
Remove two of the four 20mms.

Add a better climb at low level (16 not much good over 20k ish)
Better turn rate

You have a spit 16 @ 25lbs, nothing major to worry about. I'd still be more worried about the 20k Tiffy diving on a field than a 16.

Defensively its best bet will usually be a climb, unless the guy has dove in with a lot more 'e' (MA usual). Then you could try a turn, remembering of course it will turn worse than a 9. Against a 190 its slightly improved roll (clipped wings) is still no match for it.

alt - speed
0 - 354
3200 - 367
8000 - 367
10000 - 377
14400 - 397
20000 - 397
25000 - 394

Nothing there that should make anyone nervous.

alt - fpm
0 - 5740
5000 - 5080
10000 - 5080
15000 - 4470
20000 - 3720
25000 - 2950
30000 - 2200

Yup down low it has outstanding climb rates, but nothing that makes it uber compared to its other performance figures.
Now if it had those climb rates AND speeds like the top 4 or 5 aircraft ingame I would say no, use 18lbs boost.

In fact I believe at 20k there are quite a few that are faster and climb better, definately quite a few that are faster alone. Up high it would get eaten alive by quite few rides, down low there are enough that are faster to keep it in check.
Typically it should be found below 15k (20k max)were it stands the best chance of survival.

[jetb123]

Yay now kev im sure we will be doing more
spit fightersweeps, other than the typhys!

[Kev367th]

ONLY if we get the 16 at 25lbs boost, wouldn't waste my time flying the 18lbs boost version ( just Spit bait).