Slight Problem in FSO setup?

[daddog]

I will let the CM debate the IL2 2nd life issue on the CM board. The players can do it here.

At least twice my squad has been wiped out flying IL2’s before getting to target. Once in cloud cover in a Black Sea Squad Ops, and another time flying NOE in a Finland Squad Ops. The first time was before Squad Ops had a 2nd life. I think your right about the TBM’s and the SBD’s getting a second life Tracer. It is rare that they are considered for one, unless it is a late war (44 or 45) frame. Certainly who would give a TBM or SBD a 2nd life against the A6M2 or even if we had it the A6M3. Vs the A6M5 they seem to trade off about one for one. The early mid war IJN aircraft did not have the fire power and defensive armor to take down those AC in one pass from 2 or 10 O’clock. Sure someone might get in a luck round or be an exceptional shot now and again, but as a rule of thumb the TBM and SBD can hold their own in the mid/early Pacific events.

IL2’s have a very different concern. Yes they are tough, but against 190’s they would be much like TBM vs Ki-84 or the N1K2. Who would argue with giving TBM’s a 2nd life against those aircraft? Both times my squad was wiped out we were attacked by 190’s and had little hope of surviving. If the plane set had just 109’s that are not nearly as tough as the 190’s then I might agree, but in a mid or later war frame I see no harm giving a squad that has to fly the IL2 a 2nd life. Now a squad of 20 might not be a good idea and I can understand a frame C.O. or players concerns with having 40 attack aircraft to deal with, but IMHO if you simply limit the number of a 2nd life aircraft it all becomes moot.

Giving an aircraft a 2nd life depends all upon what they are up against. The idea is for players to have fun, and if CM’s can keep things balanced and give 2nd life in an aircraft that would not fair well against fighters in the setup, they should aim for that.

[ghostdancer]

First off lets address perceptions again. I have heard reports of IL2s getting hit with 2-4 30mm shells and living. I can see maybe surviving 2 hits but I remain doubtful about 3-4 hits from a 30 mm. B17s don't even survive that.

Remember that the fire rate of the 30mm and its drop and accuracy is vastly different than the 13mm also firing and 2 20mm gondolas. Since hit sprite don't show differently for each type of round it is very possible (especially in a turn fight battle) that you were hitting with the 13mm and or 20 mm and not consistently with the 30mm.

But yes, the IL2 is armored and tough, just don't agree that it can withstand 3-4 (this was posted by Sled over on the CM board) hits.

Okay now about gun packages and the claim that it has one of the best gun packages. It has a good package but lets take a look at it and its competitors in the fight.

IL2
2x23mm 150 rpg
1x12.7mm 150 rpg
2x7.6 mm 750 rpg

110-G2
2x20 mm 350 - 400 rpg
2x30 mm 135 rpg
1x7.9 mm 750 rpg

190F8
2x20mm 250 rpg
2x13mm 475 rpg

109G6/G10
1x30 mm 65 rpg or 1x20mm 150 rpg
2x13 mm 135 rpg
2x20 mm 125 rpg (gondolas)

190D9
2x20mm 250 rpg
2x13mm 475 rpg
[/list]

The IL2 has a good front end fire power but by no means is it massively superior to the firepower of the LW planes. The 109s would have the most problem with it if they didn't take the gondolas guns. But if they did that is either 1 30mm, 2 20 and 2 13 mm or 3 20 mm and 2 13 mm guns against the IL2.

Remember 32 IL2s were shot down versus 4 LW planes. Even if you double that and say 8 planes were put out of action do to battle damage that is goes from and 8 to 1 to 4 to 1 ratio.

Next lets look at performance (2nd number after / is wep)

IL2
246 - 0K
257 - 5K
261 - 10K
244 - 15K
215 - 20K

110 G2
312/322 - 0K
331/340 - 5K
344/351 - 10K
354/360 - 15K
362/367 - 20K
362/365 - 25K

190F8[/b[
328/351 - 0K
346/359 - 5K
341/367 - 10K
365/387 - 15K
382/402 - 20K
367/386 - 25K

109G6
318/338 - 0K
342/362 - 5K
359/370 - 10K
369/379 - 15K
381/391 - 20K
382/387 - 25K
[/list]

As you see even the 110 has a 50-100 mph advantage over it depending on the alt and if WEP is on or not. The IL2 can not run or chase. Put 1500 lbs of ordinance on and the situation becomes even worse and the plane loses the little maneuverability it has.

Take off the 1500 lbs and let it squirl about on the deck and it takes some work because of its hide.

In the ROC department it is even worse (2nd number is WEP).

IL2
1.50 - 0K
1.39 - 5K
1.00 - 10K
0.49 - 15K

110 G2
2.70/3.04 - 0K
2.62/2.99 - 5K
2.35/2.62 - 10K
2.00/2.25 - 15K

109G6
3.38/3.98 - 0K
3.66/4.31 - 5K
3.42/3.82 - 10K
3.02/3.42 - 15K
[/list]

The LW planes have twice the climb rate of the IL2 and higher alts it is more 2.5 times more. Even the 110G2 has a significantly better climb rate. Meaning if the LW fighters bounce the IL2s from above or work in the vertical the IL2s simply can track them and have to hope for a lucky shot in a swirling mass of combat. Which is why one squad decided that everyone stays together and turned into a swirling mass and nobody runs. Even still 13 IL2s died for 3 kills.

IL2s unlike the 110s and 190F8s can not dogfight, do intercept missions, or defend a base. Their forward gun package is the match of 190F8 or a 109 but they don't have the speed and ROC to bring them to bear on the target in the same way the the LW planes do. Also you can say they have a better maneuverability than the LW planes .. they are not hurricanes able to turn on a dime.

What they do have going for them is a tough skin. Otherwise the planes are outclassed.

But in comparison to the A20 that is mentioned:

A20
Speed
312/317 - 0K
325/325 - 5K
331/336 - 10K
333/333 - 15K
318/318 - 20K
302/302 - 25K

ROC
1.90/2.04 - 0K
1.64/1.64 - 5K
1.39/1.48 - 10K
1.00/1.00 - 15K

6x.50s forward
2x.50s rear

4000 lbs payload.
[/b]

The A20 is a much more capable plane. Its speed gives a much better chance of survival than the IL2 against this plane set. But even still it would have a hard time.

Against A6M5s or A6M2s the A20 is a bear to take down. So you have to also judge who gets a second life in regards to what is going to try to shoot them down.

Finally remember that the fuel burn rate was set at 1.0. Meaning the LW should have been able to fight without taking DTs (none of the Russian planes have DTs). Meaning if the CiC for the LW deciced to do so every plane on the LW side could have taken eggs and rockets and then those not attacking could dump them.

All the plane types for the LW side could do JABO, or air to air work in escorting (well the 110 would not be a great escort) a strike, or protecting a base (once again the 110 would not be great for base defense). The IL2s can not do escort work, base defense work or intercepts.

Meaning that the Russian pilots in them in the initial fighter (T+0 to T+50) had only the pilots not in IL2s to do escort work or base defense. The Russian CiC does not have the option of saying .. IL2s dump eggs and attack the incoming (discovered) 190F8 JABO force. But the LW CiC does have that option .. FW190F8s drop ordinance and defend X or attack that IL2 force.

This is why the IL2 was judged and has been judge worthy of a second life.

As for tactics or they way the battle played out. Exactly, the IL2 forces could have been mauled before hitting target. Meaning they would have to reup in IL2s again to attack. They weren't do to the way the battle played out .. IL2 strikes got within visual site of targets before discovered. Escorts bought them enough time to get eggs off, etc. But if they had been discovered 2 sectors out .. would probably have been different.

As for my numbers .. granted mistake on the events site about the USMC.

Also note that Stream has moved 332nd (11-15) to the LW side for frame 3. Also note that as far as the VVS knows the LW will have some 262s in frame 3.

[WarLover]

I'd like to compliment Ghostdancer on the analysis he did of the thought process behind the Allied orders. I didn't go into the math as much as he did and just guaged it by gut feel as to what was needed to kill the targets assigned.

I felt the only way that the Allies could possibly win is if we killed the ground targets up front and then fought the air to air battle as an end game. Since the IL2 was the only real bomb carrier on the Allied side, I felt forced to go heavy with them up front which limited my fighters in the first hour.  I did not expect the IL2s to get to target unopposed. Also, the orders required that we provide escorts for the IL2s which hurt my ability to defend.

If the IL2s had been intercepted before they struck, I would have had to reupp more IL2s to finish off the high value targets and been at a fighter disadvantage for the entire Frame. Remember, a 190 becomes a high performance fighter the second the bombs are away. An IL2 although capable is not in the same league once its bombs are gone. Without the reups, IMHO it would have been an Axis walkover.

Neither Frame so far has been a blowout. I give the CMs a lot of credit for balancing the sides so well and neither side has made any glaring mistakes in the way they have used what the CMs gave them.

Total difference here is 240 pts without the penalty and that is a difference of 24 planes over two frames or roughly 5 to 6 % of the total aircraft engaged!

It was fun and am I glad I don't have to do it every week!;)