Author Topic: Tony Williams, re: C.205's MG 151-20 cartridges (Read 1209 times)

gatt · « **on:** August 08, 2005, 06:43:06 AM »

Hi Tony,

do you have any info about ammo used by the Mauser 151-20 mounted on italian, 3rd series, C.205 Veltro's? I mean, did they use different cartridges and/or ammo belt mix than 109's or 190's ones?

Thanks for any help,
Gatt

gatt · « **Reply #1 on:** August 09, 2005, 03:54:12 AM »

Bump!

Tony Williams · « **Reply #2 on:** August 09, 2005, 04:40:53 AM »

I don't know offhand. I have never heard that the Italians manufactured MG 151/20 ammo, indeed I expect they would have found it difficult to make the M-Geschoss projectiles as these used different manufacturing technology. And the number of Italian aircraft armed with this gun was small anyway. So I would assume that they used standard German-made ammo. I am open to correction, though, if anyone has better information.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

Wilbus · « **Reply #3 on:** August 09, 2005, 05:03:24 AM »

While you are in this thread TW do you have any info on how the German Mk108 was loaded?

I got in to a discussion in the AH about this a while back I and I said that 30mm Mk108's were loaded with HE rounds, purly HE.

The other guy says No only every 6:th was HE the rest were just "Ball" as stated on your Homepage.

This makes no sense to me, why load a low velocity, high explosive projectile weapon with duds that weight as much? I've never heard this "theory" before and it really makes no sense at all.

Charge · « **Reply #4 on:** August 09, 2005, 08:02:20 AM »

Maybe it was other way around? IIRC there was some kinds of AP ammo to MK108 but it doesnt make sense to shoot that kind of ammo at a bomber, considering how effective the Mine was, particularly in 30mm loadout.

-C+

Tony Williams · « **Reply #5 on:** August 09, 2005, 08:18:59 AM »

AFAIK the MK 108 was only ever loaded with M-Geschoss rounds, either HE, HEI or I. Where does it mention ball on my website?

Having said that, I have seen a batch of the rounds loaded with the Hartkern anti-tank projectile developed for the MK 101/103; these were genuine, having been recovered from a lake (where much ammo was dumped after WW2) not long ago. They make no sense to me at all, though; the Mk 108 didn't have the velocity to use them to effect.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

Wilbus · « **Reply #6 on:** August 09, 2005, 08:30:40 AM »

It doesn't mention ball on your website. Just the "Ball" ammo type on the ammo explonation site so I used the word "ball" to explain what the other guy ment.

The reason I said "ball" was that I couldn't find any other good word to explain the dud rounds.

Thanks for the response, it seems to be as I suspected

What the guy I argued with said was that the other 5 out of 6 rounds weren't even AP or API rounds, they were simply dud, either pure metal or something else. Doesn't make any sense to arm an anti-bomber weapon with such ammo.

Charge · « **Reply #7 on:** August 09, 2005, 08:38:50 AM »

http://www.xs4all.nl/~robdebie/me163/weapons15.htm

justin_g · « **Reply #8 on:** August 10, 2005, 04:32:42 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tony Williams
AFAIK the MK 108 was only ever loaded with M-Geschoss rounds, either HE, HEI or I. Where does it mention ball on my website?

Having said that, I have seen a batch of the rounds loaded with the Hartkern anti-tank projectile developed for the MK 101/103; these were genuine, having been recovered from a lake (where much ammo was dumped after WW2) not long ago. They make no sense to me at all, though; the Mk 108 didn't have the velocity to use them to effect.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

I have read of Luftwaffe ground units using the MK108 for airfield defense against enemy vehicles in the last days of the war... maybe there is a connection?

Karnak · « **Reply #9 on:** August 10, 2005, 10:39:57 AM »

Wilbus,

If he was saying they were "duds" he was saying that they failed to detonate for whatever reason, most likely being faulty.

I have seen a shot of a P-51 that took a 30mm round behind the cockpit that was a dud adn failed to explod. I have also posted thet photo of the Mossie that took at least two rounds that were definately not duds.

A dud is simply an explosive munition that due to a malfuction does not explode. It is not a solid shot or a knowingly faulty muntion.

Wilbus · « **Reply #10 on:** August 10, 2005, 03:39:45 PM »

Yeah I know what a Dud i Karnak, however a Dud is not what I ment, nor is it what he said.

He said they were simply solid iron rounds without any kind of explosive substance.

This is where I said "BS", there is no reason what so ever to load a low velocity high caliber cannon with non explosive shells.

His argument was "well it makes a big hole" but it doesn't really, a 30mm hole or two won't usually affect the plane all that much, think 2-3 50 cal holes in the fuselage. Won't do that much either. Specially not compared to what a 30mm explosive would do.

To load up a 30mm Mk108 with non explosive shells would be like loading a plane with ballast.

Karnak · « **Reply #11 on:** August 10, 2005, 04:50:38 PM »

Well, that seems entirely unlikely then.

In fact I would be shocked (and very little can actually shock me) if it were even slightly true.

Wilbus · « **Reply #12 on:** August 10, 2005, 05:07:02 PM »

Agree Karnak.

Keiler · « **Reply #13 on:** August 10, 2005, 05:21:37 PM »

I would think a 0.5lb slug travelling at 1600ft/s will do a LOT more than 2 or 3 50cal rounds. Will go through the entire aircraft, tail to front. It actually does make sense to me to some of them in the mix, even if it were few. Better have one type of round that isnt limited to shallow damage, even if its massive. No idea if they actually did this, but if, I wouldnt be surprised.

Tails · « **Reply #14 on:** August 13, 2005, 10:56:01 AM »

Except that a .5lbs 30mm round is also physically larger than a .50 cal (~12mm) round. Larger size means more drag, more drag means more deceleration, more deceleration means it aint going 1600fps when it finally smacks into something.