109 article (from www.virtualpilots.fi)

[gripen]

The last A-4 production batch made by Fieseler contains WNr. 7155. Previous batch contains WNr. 5843 ie PM679 which also featured adjustable cooling gills (picture in Butler's book).

Power unit was basicly similar in all RAE tested Fw 190s (all had 801D2).

gripen

[Crumpp]

Power unit was basicly similar in all RAE tested Fw 190s (all had 801D2).

Sure it was Gripen.  Again Focke Wulf and BMW do not know what they are talking about.

The document is refering to the BMW801D2 and is dated November 1943.

Maybe you have an early parts list Crumpp. Did not sometime through the A-4's production did it not receive adjutable gills?

Hey Milo,

Sorry I missed this.  The parts list is from 1944, it is dated at the bottom.

It is not in any of the Beanstandungen FW190's to use the adjustable gills on the FW190A4 I have seen.

Post war historians are conflicting in their views as well.

I would say using them would make perfect sense but for one important detail.  The panels are of different length.  It means retooling for a limited production on a superceded variant.

Now what does fit is the special construction night bomber varients of that SKG 10 used.  Seems very likely as they were the only unit to recieve this construct, the aircraft came from SKG 10 and was bombing at night.  

The gills would have helped with the FW190's large amount of exhaust glare by keeping the engine compartment air from blowing the exhaust flames away from the fuselage blinding the pilot.

The flame dampeners help tremendously but FW190A was never very popular in the Nachtgeschwaders. FW190A5 and later are much more common as night fighters than the FW190A4 and lower.

Once you tool up for that, then finish building the rest with the gills.

However, the question then becomes, How does a Geschwader TO get replacement parts for his FW190A4 with cooling gills?

All the best,

Crumpp

[gripen]

Originally posted by Crumpp

Now what does fit is the special construction night bomber varients of that SKG 10 used.  Seems very likely as they were the only unit to recieve this construct, the aircraft came from SKG 10 and was bombing at night.  

The PE882 and PM679 were standard late production Fw 190A-4s with U8 kit, all late production A-4s featured adjustable cooling gills regardless the use (the part is simply the part for the A-5 as noted by Baugher). The rest is plain speculation by Mr. Crumpp who just can't realize the facts and will apparently continue this for ever.

gripen

[Crumpp]

the part is simply the part for the A-5 as noted by Baugher

Hey Gripen,

You do realize they extended the fuselage on the FW901A5?



That means the cooling gill panel would have to be shorter for an FW190A4.



Now, other serial production parts that made the change between varients are listed.

The cowl MG cover for example:



Is listed along with the different part numbers for the variants so that the Geschwader TO can order the correct part from the Luftwaffe's inventory.



Notice the absence of numbers for the cooling flap panel:



Now what you do not find listed are special production or prototypes. You cannot order a Hirth supercharger for example or wingtanks for a Ta152C.

There must have been very few FW-190A4's produced with gills for the Luftwaffe to have not assigned it a supply code.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Knegel]

Hi,

realy, arent you all talking about smal changings which often found place in planes, long before this planes got a new number or sign?
And if this new plane, lets say the 190G did appear in a official note, the 190G at the front already was more a 190F or something else.
Its already difficult to keep track to the allied development of their planes and the exact changines, regarding german planes this is more speculation and often, even and specialy cause sources are available, its subjective.
190A4/U8 or 190G, prototype or not, oh my god! The 109G6AS and G10 are also more K4´s than 109G´s, or are the early K4´s with the early engine G10´s??

Regarding the speed and other performences.

To be able to value the exact speed of a plane, you need to know how the pilot did test it, unfortunately we often dont know this.
Here i dont talk about the engine and radiator flaps etc settings!

A plane with a very very smooth dive is much faster than the plane with a very very smooth climb. The different of speed will be even bigger with a plane with relative high weight but relative smal drag(109, P51, P39, P38, P47, FW190).
Therefor its important to know if the Vmax tests are made decelerated or accelerated, how long the strait flight was and if the pilot rather did tend to keep a smooth dive or a smooth climb(exact levelflight is pretty not impossible).

Therfore its quiet strange to get in dispute cause 20km/h.

Regarding sources from the internet, i dont understand why some people talk that bad about it.
Most books and articles i know base on same or similar sources and only cause they are on paper and you did pay for it, they dont be a bit better. Its rather the other way around, cause once at home, they cant get a update, therefore the once written mistake can get to be a Myth, cause always someone will refer to this wrong book! (the 'kit' Carson article is a good example: http://mitglied.lycos.de/luftwaffe1/Carson/Carson.html ).

Realy, the 109 article on the virtual pilots page is what it is, it shal make people thinking, nothing more nothing less.
Looks like it did the job very well.

Greetings, Knegel


P.S.: Nice documents!

[gripen]

Originally posted by Crumpp

You do realize they extended the fuselage on the FW901A5?

The image posted above shows actually that extension is front of cooling gill panel and extension is not part of the cooling gill panel. Besides the pictures show that the adjustable cooling gills were there so it was not a problem to fit them there.

Originally posted by Crumpp
There must have been very few FW-190A4's produced with gills for the Luftwaffe to have not assigned it a supply code.

Baugher and Beaman note that the late Fw 190A-4 production batches got A-5 style cooling gills (which had a supply code) and this is supported by pictures of late production A-4s.

Below is yet another Fw 190A4/U8 with adjustable cooling gills, this time in LW service:

Originally posted by Knegel

realy, arent you all talking about smal changings which often found place in planes, long before this planes got a new number or sign?
And if this new plane, lets say the 190G did appear in a official note, the 190G at the front already was more a 190F or something else.

Infact I don't know what is Mr. Crumpp's point now, it is the fact that the these A-4s tested by RAE (PE882 and PM679) featured adjustable cooling gills unlike what Mr. Crumpp stated earlier. How many got them in the LW service is pretty much irrelevant for this discussion, apparently quite many based on evidence.

gripen

[Crumpp]

The image posted above shows actually that extension is front of cooling gill panel and extension is not part of the cooling gill panel. Besides the pictures show that the adjustable cooling gills were there so it was not a problem to fit them there.

Gripen,

You do know I am on the Board of Director's for the "White 1 Foundation"?

I don't care what it "Looks Like" in a book.  The real thing is one piece of sheet metal over a supporting frame.

http://www.white1foundation.org/parts/cowlflaps12.jpg

Baugher and Beaman note that the late Fw 190A-4 production batches got A-5 style cooling gills (which had a supply code) and this is supported by pictures of late production A-4s.

Primary documentation says different, Gripen.  It is posted above.

Please explain how a Geschwader TO is going to order replacement gills for his FW190A4?  

He doesn't.  He makes them at the Geschwader or he puts on the old style.

Some special production machines it appears got gills.

Below is yet another Fw 190A4/U8 with adjustable cooling gills, this time in LW service:

It's an FW190A5 night bomber version.  The fuselage extension forward of the wing root is unmistakable.   Not to mention the MTT tragers.

Wow, I bet you have been able to identify a plethora of FW190A4's with cooling gills.  I think you have to be able to identify what you are looking at before making claims based on visual identification.

You are correct in that the cooling gill issue is a sideline.

You still have not explained how the allies got around the different engine set up of the G series?

Read the last paragraph and explain it!



All the best,

Crumpp

[Angus]

Oh, goodness.
No 190's were the same then?
From Crumpp:
"Please explain how a Geschwader TO is going to order replacement gills for his FW190A4?

He doesn't. He makes them at the Geschwader or he puts on the old style."

Exactly that. No perfect world for the old LW.

[Crumpp]

You are correct Angus.  FW190's are not all the same.

Problem with the gills though is that earlier varients have serial production parts listed and they are in the supply system.

The adjustable gills for the FW190A4 are simply not in the supply system.  Therefore it is unlikely they were a serial production part.  More likely they were a KB run.  Keinebau orders are unusual but not unheard of in German aircraft and represent a very limited non-standard production of a prototype or specialized aircraft.

All the best,

Crumpp

[gripen]

Originally posted by Crumpp

You do know I am on the Board of Director's for the "White 1 Foundation"?

Yes, you have made such claim. But you  know, we are all anonymous here.

Originally posted by Crumpp
I don't care what it "Looks Like" in a book.  The real thing is one piece of sheet metal over a supporting frame.

The RAE tested Fw 190A-4s (as well as the EB-104 and PN999) had this real thing and it was adjustable from cockpit.

Originally posted by Crumpp
Primary documentation says different, Gripen.  It is posted above.

Some how you can't understand that a primary document might be incomplete. There is a lot of evidence that the late production A-4s had adjustable cooling gills. As an example Beaman says:

"The late production models had the cowling slots changed from open to closable with the rectangular shape like the A-5."

And he goes even further and claims under A-5 section:


"Some A-4s were retrofitted with this feature."

I'd say that you should not fix your opinion based on just one document when the evidence is against it. Maybe you should change your attitude and look for the real answer instead making endless speculations. As an example Mr. Beaman posts frequently to 12 O'clock high and might give you some sources.

Originally posted by Crumpp
It's an FW190A5 night bomber version.  The fuselage extension forward of the wing root is unmistakable.

My mistake, I believed the text behind the picture. My apologies, I should have noted extension between wing and cowl.

Originally posted by Crumpp
Wow, I bet you have been able to identify a plethora of FW190A4's with cooling gills.

The cases of the PE882 and PM679 should be clear, adjustable cooling gills are visible in the pictures and identity of the planes is known.

Originally posted by Crumpp
You still have not explained how the allies got around the different engine set up of the G series?

Actually the Fw 190s in the RAE were A series planes and there is no reported problems after MP499 in RAE (and even that engine did run well after small changes). There is instead claims like "purred smoothly as it ran" by Brown and "the engine behaved perfectly" by other pilot.

gripen

[Crumpp]

The cases of the PE882 and PM679 should be clear, adjustable cooling gills are visible in the pictures and identity of the planes is known.

Actually all of these aircraft were captured within weeks off one another.  All from mistaken landings at night and came from SKG10.

From "Wings of the Luftwaffe" by Capt. Eric Brown:



PE882 - landed in error at RAF West Malling during night operations on 17 April 1943.

PM679 - landed in error at RAF Manston on 20 May 1943 during night operations.

PN999 - Landed in error at RAF Manston on 20 June 1943.

Too bad they were not air superiority fighter versions. According to Focke Wulf and BMW, the motors are not the same as per their instructions to Luftwaffe personnel.



But I guess, in your mind Gripen, the British are the experts in the FW190 not Focke Wulf or BMW.

The document I posted goes on to spell out the engine differences.

Eric Browns comments on the FW190G1 nachtbomber varient engine running refers to the "start" settings, Gripen.  Not the entire throttle range:



The middle manifold pressure ran fine on all engines captured by the allies.  Trouble was only experienced  at the edge of the operating pressures, idle and emergency power.

My mistake, I believed the text behind the picture. My apologies, I should have noted extension between wing and cowl.

Yes Gripen.  Don't believe everything you read in a book.  Most books on the FW190 will say it had the same motor developing the same power throughout the lifetime of the design for example.

Or call an FW-190A5/U8 (G3) an FW-190A4 as was the case with EB-104.

It is certain that if it does not show up in the supply codes, it was not in the Luftwaffe supply system.

That does not mean it did not fly or show up on the airplane.  Keinebau production runs did occur and it is certainly not above a Geschwaders technical abilities to build the gills by modifying the existing FW190A5 gills.  All you need is a trained sheet metal worker and the tools.

It most certainly though was not a common item and very unlikely it was "serial production".

All the best,

Crumpp

[Angus]

So, being a Focke-Wulf is a complicated life

[Crumpp]

So, being a Focke-Wulf is a complicated life

Not nearly as complicated as the Spitfire!

Shacklady's book makes my head hurt sometimes!

All the best,

Crumpp

[Horrido!]

See Rule #4

[Crumpp]

There is instead claims like "purred smoothly as it ran" by Brown and "the engine behaved perfectly" by other pilot.

Gripen,

This document most certainly says nothing about the smoothness or roughness of the motor at anything but cruising speed.  

In fact the pilot confirms he knows of the reputation in the RAE for rough running.

 

Other than the mock combat against the Mustangs, he offers his opinion on the FW190 vs Spitfire.

Hey Horrido,

Thanks for asking.

The book is coming along great.  Still have more research to do but I am close.

All the best,

Crumpp